Virtually Anything Goes - a Made To See Podcast
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It's in th ename: Virtually Anything Goes.
Virtually Anything Goes is a MadeToSee.com podcast
Virtually Anything Goes - a Made To See Podcast
From "You'll Never Be Good Enough" to Meeting Prince William | The Story of Jacynth Ivey MBE
Join us for an extraordinary conversation with Jacynth Ivey MBE, a trailblazing leader whose journey from the daughter of Windrush generation immigrants to becoming the first Black Chief Nurse in the West Midlands will leave you inspired and empowered.
In this powerful episode of the Virtually Anything Goes podcast, Jacynth opens up about the obstacles she faced, the microaggressions she navigated, and the resilience she built from childhood through to receiving an MBE from His Royal Highness, the Prince of Wales in 2024. From being told she'd "never make anything of herself" to transforming healthcare leadership, her story is a testament to courage, faith, and unwavering determination.
Discover the leadership lessons that shaped a pioneer, including the unexpected turning point that changed her career trajectory, the power of servant leadership rooted in Christian faith, and why she ultimately chose to leave her executive role on her own terms. Jacynth shares invaluable advice for current and aspiring leaders about self-awareness, embracing difference, and why obstacles aren't failures but are part of your journey.
This isn't just another leadership interview, it's a masterclass in resilience, authentic storytelling, and creating spaces where everyone can shine. Whether you're navigating your own career challenges, leading diverse teams, or simply seeking inspiration, Jacynth's wisdom will resonate deeply.
Don't miss the "Virtually Anything Goes" question at the end, where Lev faces Jacynth's thought-provoking challenge about bold moves without limitations!
Subscribe for more inspiring leadership conversations and share this episode with someone who needs to hear this message today.
Jacynth Ivey MBE is an Author,, Executive Coach, and Non-Executive Director for the NHS. Connect with Jacynth Ivey MBE on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacynth-ivey-mbe-6647192b/
Website: https://jacynthivey.com/
Lev Cribb is the Founder and Managing Director of Made To See, a UK-based Video and Livestreaming Agency, specialising in the strategic and tactical use of video across B2B organisations. Lev is also the host of the Virtually Anything Goes podcast.
Made To See: https://madetosee.com/
For more information, content, and podcast episodes go to https://www.madetosee.com or our YouTube channel @madetoseemedia
I thought long and hard about this and the truth is it felt like the room was never built to hold me without breaking me.
SPEAKER_03:Hello, all your listener. This is your host, Lev Kribb. Thank you for choosing this episode featuring our guest Jacinth Ivy MBE. If you prefer video, you can also find all of our podcast episodes on YouTube or on our website at may2c.com. But now I'll get out of your way and hand you over to, well, me. Hello and welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our leadership story series, where we speak to leaders from a variety of different backgrounds, including AI, healthcare, technology, strategy, executive coaching, and others. And if you like what you hear in this episode, be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes too. Today I'm talking to Jacinth Ivey, MBE, about her story into leadership, uh, what got her to where she is today, and which obstacles uh she encountered along the way. Uh Jacinth is a multi-award-winning transformational leader, a non-executive director in the UK's National Health Service for the Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, as well as the author of the book It's Okay to Be Different, Seven Steps to Acknowledge Your Brilliance. And if that wasn't enough, in 2024, his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales recognized Jacinth for her services to nursing by awarding her an MBE, a member of the Order of the British Empire. Of course, I will be asking Jacinth about that and what it was like to meet Prince William. Jacinth, IV MBE, a very warm welcome to you. It's wonderful to have you on the show.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, and thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_03:When I turn control over to Jacinth, and she can ask me her virtually anything goes question. Uh, this can be any question at all, uh, and I won't know what it is until Jacinth asks me the question. So it could literally be anything. Uh the only caveat is that once I've given my answer, uh Jacinth will then also also have to uh give her answer to the same question. Uh so Jacinth, um that is quite a lot of achievements, and I've only just mentioned really the most recent ones. And from that overview, our listeners may be forgiven to think that you were born into privilege. But your story started quite differently. Uh, your parents Maurice and Carmen Brown were part of the Windrush generation and came to the UK from Jamaica in 1952. You yourself were born in the UK after your parents settled here. What can you tell us about the young Jacinth? What was she like and what did she experience?
SPEAKER_01:Young Jacinth almost feels a long way ago, but actually I can remember elements of the young Jacinth. I think she was playful, or I know she was playful. Um, she was happy, she was loved. Yeah, I had um an amazing childhood in a really loving family. I'm the youngest of five children, and uh it was a really loving family. My grandmother also lived with us for part of that, and and it's interesting how you remember or how I remember the good times, but also when I reflect, and there were some really challenging points in in my life, but when I just think about my family environment, it was it was loving, it was caring, it was kind, it was warm, and it was it was really, really welcoming.
SPEAKER_03:That sounds wonderful. And um, if you think back to those sort of early years, um, how do you think life, that early part of your life, shaped you as a person, and which aspects of your your early life do you think have carried through to today?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. So I always say my story started before I was born. So it started with my parents' decision to come to the UK and um and their unexpected, unwanted experiences, challenges, and the discrimination that they faced. So I think that's really helped to shape me today. And it's amazing how they coped in an environment that was so hostile to them, um, one that perhaps many listeners will will never understand. And they, like others, were the epitome of resilience. They learned to be resourceful, they knew how to build supportive networks in order to survive the hostility. But I think one of the most important messages that we heard growing up, and certainly one of the messages that I absorbed growing up, was the need to work hard. Now you can imagine as a child working hard was kind of that's not what I wanted to do. I wanted to play. I wanted to play and I wanted to continue to have fun with my siblings. But we were kind of encouraged to work harder than anyone else, and that we needed to do that in order to stand still. So I didn't understand that at the at the time. And so my parents told us stories about their experiences, and that actually said that if you know if you came from our background, our culture, our ethnicity, our heritage, that actually life wasn't fair, and that we needed to work harder than our colleagues, our friends who were born and raised here, um, if we wanted to end up in the same position, or if indeed we wanted to progress. So eventually I understood that story through my own experiences. Eventually, I understood that story, and I understood that that story is not the same for many today. But that's one of the things that often resonates in the back of me that Justin, you do have to work a little bit harder, you do have to do things um a little bit differently in order to be seen, to be heard, and to progress.
SPEAKER_03:It's interesting that you said you had to work harder to stand still. Uh, you you clearly haven't stood still, so you've worked, by the looks of it, extremely hard to get to where you are today. So um how long I mean you mentioned that you uh you eventually understood that. Um what age was that? When when did you begin to kind of realize and understand what that meant?
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's interesting. So, my my first lesson that always resonates with me was in primary school. Um, and I had a I had um a friend, so there weren't very many people who looked like me in primary school, hardly any. And one of my friends, uh, her and I used to do our maths together during class, and she went up first, and the teacher praised and said how wonderful she was. She sat down. I went up after, and we'd done this exactly the same, and he looked at me, put a line through it, and said, You'll never be any good at maths, and you'll never make anything of yourself. And that resonated, excuse me, with me throughout my life. And so, as a consequence, anytime there was anything to do with maths, I'd just automatically say, I'm no good, I can't do maths, you know, this this isn't for me. And um and one day my my husband said to me, You you've got to stop telling yourself this story because it's not true. You know, you've got to step stop telling yourself this story. And when I reflected back and I realized, well, I could do maths, I had to do it through my nurse training. I did it for my my O levels, you know, I was supporting my children with their maths. So it's amazing how some of those early messages really resonate, really stay with you and can have an amazing impact on um the things that you think about yourself and your ability.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's interesting and incredibly clearly impactful. Um, and it's it's applicable to I suppose any child, really, isn't it? These early experiences and how how important they are, but I guess on the back of your your story as well in particular.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Look looking back, was was that already for you a lesson in leadership, or was it just a lesson in life in terms of leadership and how the the teacher was treating you, or did you have your own sort of what's the first leadership lesson you can remember that um whether you realized it at the time was the lesson or not, but uh something that you might recall from earlier.
SPEAKER_01:I mean that certainly was was one of the lessons, but I think my first leadership lesson probably came out of feeling quite alone as a child. Now that kind of almost contradicts what I was saying earlier about having a really fun childhood, and I did. And as I said, I was the youngest of five children. There was a three-year age gap between myself and the next sibling, and months between them, and so the four of them were very close in age and did everything together. So I often played by myself and had that sense of isolation, but actually, what that did was force me to find my own voice, force me to be resilient from a young age. I'm sure my siblings didn't quite like that, but and I spent a lot of time with my grandmother, who I love dearly. She gave me comfort and wisdom and that sense of belonging, which balanced some of the harder experiences that I faced. And um, so from an early age I learned what it meant to be seen as different. You know, I learned through some of the derogatory name calling, which was the norm. Um, I've given one example from my childhood, but also I vividly remember a child calling me, uh and a teacher, apologies, calling me wild and woolly because I couldn't pronounce a a German, a German word. And um, some of those words, some of those experiences could have crushed me, but instead, actually, I think that they really lit a fire inside of me, and I thought, I'm gonna prove everybody wrong. So I think my first leadership lesson was about being resilient, it was about courage, tenacity, all of those things. And I learned that actually, no matter how others label you, how others identify you, you have to decide for yourself who you are and um and who and what you will become. And that lesson has never left me. And it's one of the most important questions I asked my client is a question that I learned to answer is who am I? It's a really important lesson to really learn and to understand because we often describe ourselves in relation to the roles that we undertake, or maybe our demographics, you know, I'm a woman, I'm this age, I'm this ethnicity. But that question of who am I is a truly deep question and a lesson that we all need to learn to answer.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's it's an interesting point that you make around learning early on about resilience because it's you know, even as adults sometimes we don't quite learn it, do we? And and uh to learn it at that and at such a young age, um it must have been quite impactful for you to realise that then, and that for that to be one of the first lessons you learned and the first things you you learn actually. Um so the the the young Jacinth grows up and enters the workplace. Um I'm I've sort of briefly touched on what what you do at the moment, but what how do you choose your your early career and what was it?
SPEAKER_01:Fell into my early career. Actually, career's advice at school was I mean, I don't know what it's like now, but it it it was kind of non-existent for me. And my career's advice at the time was actually I could either go and work in a typing pool, um, I could work in a shop, or I could work in a factory. Now, none of those was going to be my career choice. My mum was a senior lecturer and my father was undertaking his master's. Education was really, really important in our household. So they just weren't career choices. School wasn't somewhere that I enjoyed, Lev. It just wasn't somewhere that I enjoyed at all. And so um I didn't do well at school in terms of my qualifications, much to the disappointment of my parents.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I didn't do well at all. I left early, much to the disappointment of my parents. Um, I ended up on the dole, much to the disappointment of my parents.
SPEAKER_03:There's a recurring theme here, Justin.
SPEAKER_01:Which was yeah, absolutely recurring theme. And one day my father said to me, Things have got to change. You have got to find yourself a job. And so um so I did. I went into a nursing, I applied for nursing. I was fortunate to get through in the first round. A lot of my friends and people around me were applying to three, four, five different hospitals. I applied to one hospital and got through, irrespective of actually some of the things that were said. So my father had said to me, do general nursing and do not take anything but your registered nursing. And I was told things like, Well, girls like you do very well looking after older people, or girls like you do very well in mental health. And I can just remember my father's voice resonating saying, Nope, general nursing, adult nursing, that's what you will do. And so that's what I did. Again, having to push through and an interview, being asked things like, Well, what do your parents do? I mean, what did that matter? But anyway, I kind of pushed through and did my nursing. I absolutely love nursing. I kind of found my place in life in doing nursing, um, which wasn't a career that I had thought about. It wasn't an initial career of choice, it was just a case of I went into nursing because I had to. And so I did my general nursing, absolutely loved it. I decided I wanted to work in the community, so I went and I did my midwifery, absolutely loved that working as a midwife, delivering hundreds of papers. And that is a real, it's a real honour, yeah, to be a nurse, to be a midwife. And then I decided I wanted to go and work in the community. And um that out of probably all of my career was was the most rewarding, working in inner city areas where women and families were really struggling, really struggling to understand the system, really struggling to do the best that they could for their babies and for their children. And I felt privileged to be able to support them along that along that journey. So I think nursing, irrespective of what I've done subsequently, has been absolutely my my foundation and my rock on which I've built my career.
SPEAKER_03:It's fascinating because obviously I touched on it during the introduction in 2024, uh, that led to you being awarded an MBE for those services in to nursing. Uh 24 years before that, in 20 uh sorry, in 2000, you p you became the first uh black executive director of nursing um or chief nurse uh at the time and and uh that was in the West Midlands uh for the Solihill primary care trust. Um and the fact that you achieved that role was obviously testament to your professionalism and your dedication. But I guess it also indicates if you were the first in the year 2000, the first black woman to do to have to have that role. There must have been also some obstacles for other women to achieve that. Um can you tell us a bit more about what you encountered along the way?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you're absolutely right. Being the first and the only is incredibly challenging, and there were definitely obstacles along the way. Some of them were quite significant. Um, I must add that not all of my career was a struggle. However, there were obstacles and barriers, they were all around, and I think I became quite adept at manoeuvring around them, over them, through them, and perhaps my many years in athletics helped me to become a little bit more agile. But being a black woman in a senior leadership position meant that I was often um overlooked. Um, I think my abilities at times were often underestimated. There were questions like, well, actually, was your was my appointment tokenistic? Um, which I would really you know refute and reject. I had worked incredibly hard to get to where I'd got to. So I'd be overlooked. I felt I was judged more harshly than others. For example, I would get asked more questions, um, such as I, you know, I'd get asked, well, are you the executive director? I'd get asked that a number of times as if I'd got it wrong. Um experienced microaggressions on a regular basis. For example, comments on how I dressed, being ignored in conversations, being talked over, deliberately left out of emails and meetings that I should have been a part of. Um, I remember being continually questioned about why I had taken particular decisions or why I had been asked to attend perhaps a national meeting, as though somehow my presence needed extra justification. So those experiences had a real impact on me, and at times I felt isolated. And I talked earlier about my earlier childhood about feeling isolated and feeling different. Um, and I could feel myself withdrawing and becoming quieter and almost becoming invisible in spaces where I should have had a strong voice. But one of the challenges was, was it a challenge? Was actually other nurses, other people who looked like me were looking to me for support, looking for me as a role model. And behind all of that, there was an element of imposter syndrome because I was experiencing anxiety. I was experiencing anxiety on the way to work, sometimes in the workplace itself, always wondering what I was going to face that day. So that's the unseen toll of microaggressions. And I that's not a term I really like because actually it's not micro. It's often described as death by a thousand cuts. You know, the exclusion, they chip away all the time at your, or they chipped away at my confid, at my confidence, and making me question, do I really belong? Can I really take my whole self into the workplace? And so I believe that I had three choices. Um, one was to leave, which at the time wasn't an option, to stay and do nothing, which wasn't an option because it was really impacting on my emotional and mental health, or to do something different. So I chose to face those barriers. Um, everyone, every time somebody questioned my ability or I faced another microaggression, I kind of stood tall and really had to demonstrate my capability. I began to understand the strategy. I honed the art of things like strategic networking, um, navigating organizational politics. And when I faced those barriers, I took a deep breath before I took the opportunity to educate and to challenge. And so I now use these experiences and strategies that I developed to support others to transform themselves and the organizations. And so these personal challenges became growth points. They taught me resilience, and yes, it's that word again, and they taught me adaptability, and um the real importance of not letting external voices drown out my inner conviction and my inner thoughts.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, ev everything you you talk about talks really has a subtext of learning and building resilience and you know learning to adapt because perhaps the normal rules don't necessarily apply or the usual rules. Um and and I can see how that would develop you as a as a person and your character and your your your personality with that as well. And it it I mean you you said earlier that it was it wasn't your your career progression wasn't always hard, but also I suppose it wasn't necessarily a steady linear one either. Do you recall a conversation that changed the trajectory of your career? Uh an individual conversation that you had, whether it was from the the nurses that looked to you when you were in leadership, or was it already before that? Um do you recall anything?
SPEAKER_01:So my career for the first probably 10, 15 years was was was fairly straightforward. Fairly straightforward. As I said, I was a nurse, a midwife, a health visitor, absolutely loved um all of the all of those, uh, all of that journey. Um but there was a time when I I kind of made a decision that I wanted to advance in my career. Um, I wanted to do something differently, you know, I wanted to move higher. And so it was almost when that decision was made by myself, my career trajectory became kind of more scrambled, it became knotty, and um the obstacles began to present themselves. They could have been there earlier, I don't know, but it but I didn't necessarily feel or see them. So interestingly, the the turning point wasn't a certain conversation that I was expecting. I was encouraged to go on a positive action programme, which was aimed at black and minority ethnic stuff. And I remember at first I was really upset because I felt it was a remedial programme, almost as if something was wrong with me that needed fixing. Whilst my white colleague, who I worked with very closely, was offered a master's programme. So I couldn't understand why I wasn't offered a master's program, but I was offered this, what I perceived to be a remedial program. Um, but what I came to realise, actually, it wasn't about me being deficient, it was actually about a system not being ready for someone like me. I went on that program, and it was the turning point of my career, actually. It gave me the tools, it gave me confidence. Um I was in a room for the first time full of people that looked like me, being taught, being supported by senior women of colour who looked like me, who were of colour, who had managed to navigate some of those knotty places, who had managed to navigate their career into senior leadership positions. And that really helped me to see that actually my difference was not a weakness, it was actually my strength. And looking back, that was the moment that shifted my trajectory. It gave me a new perspective on myself as a leader. Um, it gave me a new perspective on how I could use my position to open the doors for others. I'm a real believer in that notion of, and we have all heard it, you know, the lift as you climb. And there's an African philosophy of Ubuntu, which means I am because we are. And that's a way of life that promotes that social awareness and responsibility. So that conversation, that opportunity, it was an opportunity that at first I thought was um a remedial opportunity. It was that opportunity that helped me to shift in my career and really helped me to understand how to navigate through my career to where I am today.
SPEAKER_03:I've got so many questions about this. Um the the the person who suggested you should go on that program, was it their intention? Had they seen, did they see that this would be the outcome for you? Or or was their intention perhaps the remedial side of things?
SPEAKER_01:I would have loved them. I would have loved to think that actually they saw the potential that this is a great way forward. Actually, it was something that had landed on their door, on sorry, on their desk that morning. So it was a flyer that had landed on their desk that morning, and um they just thought, Jacinth, you know, perhaps she'd like to go and do this, as it's for people from black and minority ethnic communities. So that's what she told me. So there was there was there didn't appear to be any thought about my career trajectory. Certainly, there wasn't the option of you could do this or you could do the master's course, which is being offered to your colleagues.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And what do you think? That was my other question. What what do you think your progression or your life would be like if you'd gone for the masters instead of this course? Um, have you ever thought about that?
SPEAKER_01:That's an interest, that's an interesting question. Um I don't know how different it would be, but I can I even now I can hear my my parents' voice, particularly my father, resonating in me that you need to work harder. But also I saw my mother kind of navigate her career from being told actually she wanted to be a teacher and being told go away and have babies to actually becoming a senior lecturer at Oxford Brooks University to being, you know, being the first black social worker to sitting on um a commission which developed the First Race Relations Um Act. So my parents had really pushed through, and so in a in a way, it wasn't going to be an option for me. I would have to learn to navigate. So yeah, I I just got perhaps learned some of the tools more quickly and more strategically through this program.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting, really interesting. And you you work with leaders um from a range of different backgrounds, and you also speak, I mean you mentioned this, I think you touched on it earlier. Um, on you speak on diversity and inclusion, um, you speak on uh women empowerment. Um what do you encounter most when you uh coach people that they struggle with when it comes to becoming a leader or succeeding as a leader? What do you see from the clients that you work with?
SPEAKER_01:So a lot of the clients that come to me, so I work predominantly with women and women from minoritized minoritized group, and there are a number of things. So externally, many women, include including those from minoritized groups, still face what we call the glass ceiling, um, struggling to maneuver their careers. Um, and in some cases, this is not a glass ceiling at all, it feels more like a concrete ceiling, and so breaking through can take an enormous amount of effort, both emotional, physical, and psychological effort. And it's not just about entering leadership, it's having the support to stay there. And so in coaching, it's often around, you know, what are the strategies that women have to um embrace in order to stay where they are. Um, but not only stay, but to not only to survive, but it's about thriving. And and one of the challenges, one of the other challenges is what I call that tall poppy syndrome. So being um the only one sometimes in that space. And the moment that you stand out, particularly when you're considered different, when you're the only, when you're the first, everything that you do is magnified. And so you can't afford to make a mistake, unlike your colleagues, because there's a sense that everybody knows who you are, even if they don't know your name, they'll find a way of describing you. And often leaders will tell me that they struggle with visibility, and I coach them through this because actually we can be visible for the wrong reasons, and what it's really encouraging what I really support women around and coach me around is how to be visible for the right reasons in the right ways, how to step into places and spaces with confidence. Without feeling ultra-exposed, without that feeling of isolation. The other area is around ownership of their journey. So too often leaders feel that they're at the mercy of the system. They're waiting for permission, waiting for somebody to perhaps tap them on that shoulder and that tap is never going to come. Waiting for recognition, waiting for an opportunity. I hear about people saying, Well, I'm waiting for my manager to tell me that I'm ready for that next move. And indeed, that often never arises. So one of the most powerful shifts is when you realize that you can exist and you can create opportunities on your own terms rather than being pushed out, being burnt out, which is something I've lived and experienced. And so I encourage others to embrace. So staying is not about survival, it's about strategy, it's about building allies, nurturing resilience, reminding yourself daily that actually you belong in the room. And so the struggles are real, breaking through, staying in a system that perhaps doesn't recognize or acknowledge your brilliance, but also knowing when to walk. And I remember being asked, why did you leave? You were an executive director, the first black chief nurse in the West Midlands. And I thought long and hard about this. And the truth is, it felt like the room was never built to hold me without breaking me. It was built, it felt very much like to contain me, to diminish and to silence me. That's how I felt at the time. And I refused to shrink in. I wasn't going to let my mental health suffer any any more than it did. And instead, I chose to rise, to shine, and to leave on my own terms. And I've continued to build and to to journey from there. And I use that experience to help other women to rise, to shine above those obstacles and to just shine in their brilliance.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you talked about your father, you you talked about both your parents, your grandmother, and what you talk about here is inspiring others. But what inspires what or who inspires you or has inspired you? Because it can't just all be built on resilience. I'm sure you'll be inspired by others as well. Who inspires you? And how do you inspire others? Um other than what you just shared?
SPEAKER_01:So I I have to go back to my foundation, which you've alluded to, my parents, um, my grandparents, and the Windrush and those in the Windrush area, really understanding the story of Windrush and what that generation um came through. And actually, if it wasn't for that generation and what they went through, you know, they paved the way for many of us to be who we are today. So my parents as one, my faith. So I'm a Christian, and that and my faith really anchors my leadership style, and it reminds me that actually what I'm in service to do, it reminds me about you know my values around compassion and integrity, which for me are non-negotiable. And I draw some of my inspiration from biblical figures such as Ruth and Esther, who were women who defied the odds and fulfilled their purpose through adversity. And it is around people who overcome adversity, everyday people. I'm talking about not necessarily famous names, but everyday people who, despite barriers, um are managing to rise through the odds. My own personal journey, of course, when I look back and reflect, and sometimes I do think, wow, look how we've come, but there's still more to go. Um, but it's really important that I know that my story can help others break through that through the glass ceiling. So the way that I hopefully inspire others is through that authentic storytelling. I am quite open about sharing my struggles, as well as really open about, of course, sharing my my victories, the times where things did go amazingly well, and there are those times. And um, really, it's important that through my stories, through my storytelling, kind of showing people that leadership is not about perfection, it's about persistence and self and self-belief. So it's really important that create I create spaces and that we create spaces for others to shine, which I do through my coaching, through some of the workshops, through my role as a non-executive director in an NHS organization, intentionally creating opportunities for voices that are often silenced. Um, and I I think most importantly being a role model, living my values and modelling those values, demonstrating leadership at every point, I think is really important. So inspiration, as I said, is not about being perfect, inspiring people, it's about showing others, I think, what's what's possible.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, you you mentioned your Christian faith faith, which is something that we share. Um, and you you've talked about how it inspires you as well, and and how you lead it. How does your Christian faith contribute to your leadership style? How does that come out practically? Is there anything?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. My Christian faith is integral, you know, like we've heard that phrase, like a stick of rock. It's been my my foundation in my leadership style, and it gives me that um moral compass and has kept me grounded in terms of my values. I talked about, you know, values of compassion, integrity, justice. And for me, um, leadership is never just about the role or the title, it's really about how you serve others and create space for them. And um so you know, when I think about my Christian faith, I'll think I'll describe my approach as servant leadership because my faith reminds me that true leadership is not about power. It really is not about power, it's about how we serve others. And that means, you know, for me, listening deeply, making decisions with fairness, creating opportunities for people that may otherwise have been overlooked. My faith has carried me through when it's been dark, when um it has been incredibly challenging. So whether that be personal, whether that be through health struggles, family issues, career, but it's helped me through those through those dark times and um and has kept me calm and has really kept me grounded. So for my for me, um my faith doesn't just influence how I lead, but it's really influenced who I am as a as a leader.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, interesting, interesting. And I mean you've you've you talk about servant leadership, you you've dedicated your life to service, and and then in 2024, uh, I mentioned this earlier a couple of times, uh, but it led to you being awarded an MBE and presented by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. I mean, I I suspect there's not many people listening to this podcast or watching this podcast who have experienced the same. So tell us a bit more about how that happened and what was it like and um what was he like?
SPEAKER_01:Yes, thank thank you, thank you for that. Um, being awarded an MBE by um Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was an incredibly emotional but an incredibly humbling experience. You know, it's that experience that says, Well, somebody like me who came from humble beginnings should receive such an award. And I remember when I first read the letter, well, actually, what happened was I received an email, I received a telephone call, sorry, and from somebody who said, It's the cabinet office here. And I thought, yes. They said, Have you received an email from us? I said, a letter. I said, No. And they said, Well, there's a letter attached to this email, please read it and respond. And so that was the letter, that was the first notification that I had been awarded um an MBE and I needed to respond whether or not I was going to accept that. And of course, I accepted it. For me, it wasn't just about recognising my service to nursing or to leadership, it really felt like an acknowledgement of the obstacles that I'd faced, but an acknowledgement of also the communities that I represent. And I remember walking into Windsor Castle. I took my husband, my daughter, and um two of my in-laws. And I remember walking into Windsor Castle. It's the first time I'd been there, and it's this amazing building. Yeah, the sun was shining, it was beautiful, and meeting Prince William was amazing, but hearing my name read out was surreal. There was one other woman in that room who looked like me, and in that moment, I thought about my parents, I thought about and their journey, I thought about those teachers who said that I would never make anything of myself. And I thought about the countless patients and colleagues and those leaders that I'd worked with through the years. I thought, I thought about my passion for equity, my passion for justice. And um, and in particular, I thought about the Windrush era. And so, yes, it was an honor, but more than that, it was that real reminder around why I do what I do, why I was so passionate to ensure that actually everybody receives equitable care, everybody has a good outcome, everybody has a good experience, there are opportunities for everybody, and so it was a reminder and it really helped me to stay true to my values. So receiving that MBE Lev wasn't just for me. It really felt like it wasn't just for me, it was for everyone who had ever felt unseen, unheard, or excluded, and a real symbol that our brilliance can and will be recognized.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, congratulations on that, honored. It is truly deserved and um fascinating to hear kind of that that encounter as well. I'm assuming it was brief, but it it will stay with you for a long time, I would have thought.
SPEAKER_01:It was it was incredibly brief, but it was it, yeah, it will stay for me a long time. Um, it was a really deep, meaningful conversation in that brief moment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, excellent. Well, that's it's it's that's that's amazing. Um and uh it's um yeah, it's not it's not something that we we hear about every day, is it? So um to to be able to speak about this and and have you on the show is is is is it's it's really great. Um so I mean there you are as a as a leader, uh you know, being honored by another leader in his own right. Um what is leadership to you? We haven't really spoken about that, but what is leadership to you and how do you define it?
SPEAKER_01:Leadership for me is being able to take people with you. It's being able to see the to see the vision in the midst of everything, being able to see the vision, hold the vision, and in being able to take people with you. And that's taking everybody with you, irrespective of their role, irrespective of where they have come from. And it's about being in service to others, for others, in in terms of that um bigger picture. So leadership isn't about me, it's not about my journey, although my journey has helped me to get to where I have been, but it really is about being in service for others, and I think I've kind of alluded to that throughout um throughout this conversation. So it's my ability to take people with me to towards that bigger picture. It's my ability to help and support others to see um and acknowledge the greatness within them and how they contribute as well to that, to that bigger picture.
SPEAKER_03:And what what what advice do you have for people who are currently currently in leadership or perhaps aspiring to be in leadership, um, but maybe struggling with obstacles, with you know situations they encounter? What advice can you share from your experience?
SPEAKER_01:I think my first piece of advice is not to underestimate the power of self-awareness. So really understanding who it is that you are, and I talked about that a little bit earlier, but taking time to reflect on who you are, not just what you do. And when you begin to understand your own values and your strengths and even your limitation, you can begin to lead, you can begin to operate, you can begin to operate with true authenticity. Um, and that's what people want. I think, secondly, it's to remember that challenges and obstacles are not a sign of failure. They're part of all of our journey, our life journey and our career journey. And every setback that I faced from being the only black person, black woman in the senior rooms to navigating the microaggressions, health struggles, has taught me a lot, has taught me to be courageous, has taught me to be bold, and has really taught me the importance of finding my own voice. And I'm not sure of the originator of this quote. I think it was Lisa Nichols who said, it wasn't my circumstances that affected my spirits, but actually how I chose to respond to them that really um stole my joy. So, in other words, it's really important to remember that you know we have choices and how we respond and um and to recognise those choices. I think the other thing that's really important that has really carried me through is around seeking support. So, too often leaders think that they must carry everything alone, that they have to find all the solutions alone, that they have to be strong. So it's really important to surround yourself with mentors, with sponsors, with coaches, with peers who can offer a different perspective, with peers who can challenge you and encourage you, and that really to understand leadership is not a solo act. And I think my final point would have to be around um embracing difference. So whether that's your own uniqueness, your own difference, or the diversity that's within your teams, because that's where innovation and transformation truly comes from. So my advice is to lead with self-awareness, um, would be to treat obstacles as lessons. Never walk the leadership journey alone. Don't be afraid to stand out because it's in that brilliance is where we shine, it's where the innovation happens.
SPEAKER_03:Wise word from from somebody who's been there and done that and and is still doing it. It's uh truly inspirational and wonderful conversation. Uh, really appreciate you being on. We're not quite done yet, but um, we've still got the virtually anything goes question as well. But um yeah, everything you've shared uh has been insightful for me. I think it's been really helpful for me to hear. Um, and I'm sure it's the same for everybody else watching this and and listening to this as well. So I really appreciate you sharing your your personal story, your insights, your advice, um, and and giving us an insight into um how you've progressed and and how you've dealt with different situations. So I really appreciate that. Thank you very much. Um so the the virtual anything goes question. Um this is if you're new to this podcast, it's um where uh I turn control over to my guest in this case, Jacinth, and um she can ask me any question she wants. It doesn't have to be related to what we uh talked about today. I don't know what that question is, so it is entirely new to me. Uh I do have to answer it no matter what it is, uh, but I do have a safety net. I uh after I've given my answer, I will then ask Jacinth the same question as well. So um I'm ready. Um please tell me what your virtually anything goes question is.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Liv, and and thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my story and my anything goes questions is kind of related to that, really, because I've shared around some of my obstacles and limitation and barriers, and um and and and I'm sure everybody's had those. And I I my question is if there were no no obstacles and barriers, if limitations, any form of limitation, if you know they didn't exist, what bold move would you make tomorrow?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, great question. Um I'm assuming you'll you'll accept personal or professional, or is it just professional or anything?
SPEAKER_01:You decide.
SPEAKER_00:If there were no limitations, really exciting to hear this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, how am I? I need to think about what what it could possibly be because I'm sure there's there's more than one thing I can think of. Um, because it's um there's so many thoughts in my head and I've you know I've never actually thought about that question before. Um thank you for asking it. Um I might have to break this down into personal and professional, and it it probably marries up somewhere as well. Um but I I love I love my work. Um and in fact I think my wife um the other day said after we came back from holiday, she said I you know, you never seem to be frustrated by having to go back to work. You really like what you do, don't you? And I said, Yes, um, I do. Um so I I do enjoy it, and and she's she's always joked, I I can never see you retiring because you know you you just seem to enjoy work too much. Uh not in the sense that I I'm never at home, but you know, I do I do enjoy it when I'm here. Um but at the same time, you know, to be able to without limitation spend time on not work-related things, you know, family while the children are growing up, being there and present. And I'm sure at some point they probably tell me to go go back to work and even to do their things, but you know, to have no limitation to be able to spend time on things that aren't necessarily the work that pays the bills. Um, you know, I'm um a tristee for a charity, uh I'd love to spend more time on that and and help there. Um I'd love to spend more time um obviously with my family and the children as they grow up um and um spend more time travelling and and doing all those things. I think that typically we we have in mind that if if you know if if I won the lottery tomorrow kind of thing, um and and and you know be more I I guess serve more actually. Um coming back to what you said, you know, it's it's whether it's through our church, whether it's through the charity aspect, all all all those things. There are so many things that need to be done and can be done in this world. I think that that that is definitely a big thing. And and at the same time, I look at my work and I think there's so many things I still want to do there as well, you know, and um companies we want to work with, things we want to do, things we want to provide that we feel really passionately about. Uh and if there was no limitation and there was a a cue out the doors of uh out the door of companies saying, you know, give it give us all your most innovative um services and things and thoughts, you know, I would I would love to spend time on that because it again it it it interests me, it fascinates me, it brings me joy as well. And I know it does for the team as well. So it's it's it is really hard because if there was literally no limitations, uh the there's just too much to do. But I think ultimately at the at the base foundation of all of this, I guess, is is is is serving. It's it's not it's not consuming, it's not you know, it's not hedonistically on the beach and the cocktails, and I mean that would be lovely. I'm sure that I'm sure that'd be part of it. But um, I think at the foundation it would be um serving more. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you so so much for that. There was so much in there. Um, but uh thank you as a real kind of authentic, authentic answer and authentic response to that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I guess yes, absolutely. No limitations, uh Justin. What's the bold mood? Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:There was so much in what you said that resonated with me, Lev. You know, yes, I've had a life of ups and downs and twists and turns, and you know, and I always say through all, I've not only survived but thrived. I too love life. Um, I love my journey, irrespective of the fact that some of it has been a little bit dark. And I love my journey, and I look back on that because that has shaped who I am today. Um, and so so sometimes those those limitations I kind of see have shaped me. Yes, they have shaped me. So perhaps I don't want them not to have existed. So it's a bit, it may start off as a strange response. Um, but I, you know, and I feel I've really learned. And I I talk about I'm here to serve. And so I'd really love to be able to take my message of you know, of being courageous, being bold, being resilient, of really supporting people to transform the way that they live their lives, transform the way that organizations um work, but to be able to do that globally, particularly in unders with underserved communities, you know, really want to be able to reach women. And I and I feel that this is my mission and in and purpose. And as a Christian, we're often kind of you know exploring. So, what is our purpose in life? What does God put us on this earth to do? Um, which isn't about you know, kind of earning money and collecting, collating things. Um, and for me is about reaching those women who are often unseen and unheard, um, supporting those leaders everywhere to break through um whatever it is that they need to break through. So whether that's breaking through glass ceilings in terms of their leadership roles, or whether that is actually breaking through the day-to-day realities of poverty, of social exclusion, you know, and some of those challenges. And I've had some amazing mentors along the way, um, and amazing coaches who have supported me through work life, through my spiritual life, through my life in terms of my relationship and children. And so my passion is to be able to support others along their journey. Yes. So that's the that's the bold move is to support others along their journey wherever they may be. Um, and I suppose the other thing is, no, I don't want to, I want to lay on the beach, of course I do. Um, but but I also think that unapologetically take time out for me. Because actually, in taking out time out for me to rest, renew, I can be of greater service to others. So I need to recognize that actually I need to take time out for me to recharge so that I unapologetically so that I can be in service to others, and so that's what I would do. Um, and that's my aim, and that's what I will do.
SPEAKER_03:Excellent. That sounds great. And I suppose the follow-up question would be, which we're not we don't have time for today, but what are the limitations that are preventing us from doing all these things? But maybe that's another one for another time. Yeah, that's that's that's great. It is really wonderful to hear, and and and thank you for asking that question. Um, and I also have to say uh a big thank you to Chelsea Baker, who recommended I speak to you, um, bring you onto the podcast. She's a previous uh guest on this podcast and spoke about mentoring. Um, and she put us in touch. So thank you, Chelsea, as well. If you're watching, thank you very much. Um Jason, it's been a really fascinating and inspiring conversation. I really appreciate your time that you spent with us, that you shared with us. Um and um I'm delighted you were you were with us here today. So I really appreciate it. I wanted to say a big thank you to you. Um and also, of course, thank you to our audience for watching this, for listening. Um, if you enjoyed this uh episode, please share it with somebody that you think will also enjoy it, and of course, check out our other episodes um on other topics with other leaders and a variety of other things. In the meantime, thank you very much for watching, for listening, and Justin, thank you very much for being here. And we'll speak to you very soon and see you on another episode very soon too. Thank you. Take care.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. For other interesting topics, go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search with a virtually anything goes podcast. See you next time.
