Virtually Anything Goes - a Made To See Podcast
This podcast focuses on interesting conversations. Each series has a different theme. Episodes cover a wide range of topics including marketing, AI, communications, healthcare, addiction, sleep & insomnia, sales, livestreaming and many more.
Get to know our guest, their story, and their expertise. Learn something new, be entertained, and discover something new.
It's in th ename: Virtually Anything Goes.
Virtually Anything Goes is a MadeToSee.com podcast
Virtually Anything Goes - a Made To See Podcast
Emma Acton (VP Marketing EMEA at Zendesk) on leadership lessons, collaboration, and success
In this episode, host Lev Cribb sits down with Emma Acton, VP of Marketing EMEA at Zendesk, to explore her career journey, leadership lessons, and what it takes to thrive as a modern marketing leader. Emma shares candid insights from her early days in sales, how that experience shaped her perspective on the vital partnership between sales and marketing, and why alignment across teams has never been more critical.
She takes us behind the scenes of marketing’s evolution from the days before websites and mobile phones to today’s complex martech stacks and sophisticated demand-generation engines. With authenticity and clarity, Emma explains how marketing has grown into a driving force for business growth, customer engagement, and sustainable revenue.
You will also hear Emma’s reflections on leadership challenges, including being underestimated and the importance of knowing your numbers. She offers practical advice for marketers navigating high-pressure environments: understanding performance data, demonstrating value, and building strong relationships with sales counterparts. Her message is clear: credibility comes from insight, accountability, and measurable results.
The conversation also turns personal, as Emma discusses the often-misunderstood concept of “imposter syndrome.” Rather than viewing self-doubt as a weakness, she reframes it as a natural, even useful, tool for growth. By breaking challenges down into achievable steps, seeking validation, and remaining open to input from mentors and colleagues, Emma shows how leaders can use moments of uncertainty to sharpen focus and fuel innovation.
Whether you’re a marketing professional looking for career inspiration, a business leader navigating the complexities of team alignment, or simply interested in authentic leadership stories, this episode delivers valuable takeaways. Emma’s journey is a powerful reminder that resilience, curiosity, and a willingness to learn are the foundations of long-term success.
This episode is part of our Leadership Stories Series, where we speak to leaders from a variety of different backgrounds, including AI, Strategy, Marketing, Executive Coaching, Healthcare and others! Subscribe and check out our other episodes on Youtube at @madetoseemedia
Connect with Emma Acton on Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmaacton/)
Connect with Lev Cribb on Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/levcribb/)
For more information, content, and podcast episodes go to our Youtube Channel @madetoseemedia or https://www.madetosee.com
I don't like to think of you've failed at something. You just may have tackled it in a slightly different way. You've given it a practice try. And that's given you tools, that's given you experience to approach it from a different way if it comes up again in the future.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, audio listener. This is your host, DevTrib. Thank you for choosing this episode featuring our guest Emma Acton. If you prefer video, you can also find all of our podcast episodes on YouTube or on our website at MateC.com. But now I'll get out of your way and hand you over to, well, me. Hello and welcome to this leadership stories episode of the Virtue Anything Goes podcast. In this series, I speak to leaders from a variety of different backgrounds, including AI, healthcare, software, strategy, executive coaching, and others. And if you like what you hear in this episode, be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes too. Today I'm talking to Emma Acton about her leadership story, how she got to where she is today, and whether any situations or experiences threatened her progression. Emma is the VP marketing EMIA at Zendesk, where she heads up the EMEA marketing function across a variety of teams, disciplines, and specialities. Emma has close to 30 years of experience in fast-paced market leading organizations. She started her long career in network hardware in the mid-90s and progressed to build her wealth of experience in senior marketing roles, working for market leading companies such as Chopad, Tipco, and Iron Mountain. Emma Acton, very warm welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00:Wonderful. If this is your first time listening to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast, stick around until the very end when I turn control over to Emma and she can ask me her Virtually Anything Goes question. This can be any question at all. I won't know what it is until Emma asks me. So it could literally be anything. The only caveat is that Emma will have to answer the same question after I have given my answer. So, Emma, um, when we spoke before we recorded this episode today, you shared with me a story about what is probably your first leadership lesson. Uh you were a girl guide at the time. What can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_03:I was, yes. Um, so long, long time ago now, um, in in the big scheme of things, um, but I was patrol leader of the swallow patrol for the third light water uh guides, and we were away on camp. And we'd arrived, and we had uh all the patrol leaders had to set up their individual tents for each of their patrols, and you had to create your bedding racks, and you had to make sure that your patrol and everything was all set up for the week away. And I remember getting the team together, and we somehow had managed to put the tent up, and it was kind of, well, you do a bit of that, and we'd do a bit of this, and da-da-da. And at the end, um, we had to then create our bedding racks. And I was like, Oh, I'll get on with that. And I start splicing away with the wood and the the string to put it all together. And the um the brown owl came over and she said, quick word. She said, Um, you know you've got a whole patrol, don't you, that that that can be helping do all of this. You don't have to do everything yourself. She said, You need to learn to delegate. And and I think that was kind of my first, ah, no, I don't need to do that. There are lots of us together in a team and we can accomplish. So I don't need to do all of this myself. And it was really sort of eye-opening to to be told that at such a young age that you know you can bring all these people together to to uh as a team achieve something. So that that's that story.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent, and then did you did you see yourself as a leader after that, or did it take a little while to settle in? What was the the school age, Emma, like?
SPEAKER_03:It to yeah, good, it took a little while to to um to settle in, I think. I because you're so used, I'm I'm an only child, and so I'm you so used to doing everything myself from you know a very, very young age, being very, very self-sufficient. Um, that to then think about tasks and break them down for teams to do wasn't natural. Um, I think maybe if you have brothers and sisters or you you did team sports from a very early age, it might be easier. I didn't. I did kind of ballet and gymnastics, and none of that's a team thing. You are an individual um competitor. And so it I struggled a bit. And I think uh Brown Al realized that. And she said, Don't forget your team, don't forget the patrol, they can help do it. So um it it came over time. It wasn't immediately natural to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and and you know, when you look at your early career, your your first roles were in sales. What what drew you to sales at the time?
SPEAKER_03:I don't think it was uh it wasn't something I set out to do. I think it was sort of a a natural move into to a role. So starting out as I did um in in networking, I initially started out on the kind of inside sales help desk, and we had lots and lots of questions that would come in from um all of our channel partners and and others. And so I got connected with a lot of the partners, was answering their questions on a daily basis, formed relationships, and you're kind of working with the channel managers and channel sales as well at the same time. And it was sort of natural progression to move from answering their questions to actually managing one of one of the accounts and end up managing a couple of of the channel partners. Um, that was probably my first role in in sales, and then just really progressing from there. So whether it's a direct customer or whether it's a channel partner that you are are working with and helping, it's um you're ultimately delivering value and helping them get from sort of one place to another. So I kind of didn't set out to right, I'm gonna go and I'm going to be in sales. It it just it happened.
SPEAKER_00:Right. As as as so much, and we'll explore obviously your your story a bit more and kind of see where that um you know progressed. And obviously, we we know where you are now, but um you know, we fast forwarded a little bit and six years into your career, all of a sudden it's the year 2000 and the dot com bust happens, and you know, a lot of companies were affected by that, the economy was affected by that. How did that impact your career?
SPEAKER_03:Actually, I'll be honest, I don't think I was sort of really affected by it. And and and here's the reason. So I was working um in networking um at the time, and then I um was getting married, and it was sort of a busy time, as you can imagine, trying to work full-time um and trying to book a wedding. And so I I made the decision with my fiance at the time. He said, well, you know, if you want to take some time out, go do that. And that was in early 2000, um, because we were getting married in the August. So the kind of challenges and the issues with the economy didn't really affect me um directly because I took a couple of years out, I did some consultancy, um, which was great. So my husband was able to get me connected with a couple of um software organizations. And so I chose to work when I needed to. I wasn't directly impacted, which I think was lucky. I was kind of sheltered from um from any kind of economic crisis that that was happening for the rest of the world. And I think at the time it was also good because consultancy and and you know, paying a day rate for people, you can turn on and turn off as you need to. So, you know, one week they might want you for five days and it might just be one or two. And so you can fit around it. There's flexibility for the organization that's hiring you and they're not committing to a salary and all the overheads and other things. So I think that certainly helps when there is um uncertainty uh in the market.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh I wanted to dig a bit more into the kind of the early career of Emma. Uh were there any situations, whether that was during that consultancy period or or before then, where you felt completely out of your depth and something happened where you thought, oh, I'm not sure what to do here. And how did you handle that? Were there any sort of early uh ways that you used your your personality, your your your background, your experience today to kind of handle that?
SPEAKER_03:I think from a skills perspective, the consultancy thing was quite natural because it's all around breaking projects down into the deliverables over periods of time. You've got a whole kind of project plan. Um, I'm quite an organized person, um as my colleagues and uh and team will attest to and previous colleagues. I'm I'm organized both in home life but also in in my work life. And so that really helped from a consultancy perspective because you've got these frameworks to follow. Um you're helping organizations and giving them views that they might not necessarily have the time to look at. Um, but being out of depth, I think probably came in my next role. Um I moved into computer center, so uh in in networking, and I was a network sales specialist, and it was a very, very technical role. And so you needed to understand networking and how um wide area networking, local area networking um worked. And whilst I'd had a fair bit of exposure to that at um at my previous role at Bay Networks, um, I was in there and I was sort of designing networks with vendor equipment for my customers. So um I would work with the account directors for various different accounts, and they'd say, Oh, they're looking at this upgrade or that upgrade. They've currently got this manufacturer and they're they're looking to move. And then gigabit Ethernet became a thing. And before I know it, I was kind of designing these kind of networks. Obviously, I had a real kind of pre-sales uh person that would help and validate, but you're um you're doing something that's out of your comfort zone. It certainly was for me. I was like, Well, have I got that right? Okay. Um, and it's not until your kind of pre-sales validates it um or you kind of design together that you realize. But it was first few months until I thought, until I was like, I've got this, I can do this. Were, yeah, I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna go into these customers. Do I sound like I know what I'm talking about? Um, turns out I did. So um that that was quite good. But it was, yeah, an uncomfortable few moments get sort of out of that comfort zone.
SPEAKER_00:How did you deal with that? I mean, it you know, I suppose we all experience situations where you know we're out of our comfort zone and there's different coping mechanisms and ways to deal with it. Uh what what are you like or what were you then like? You know, did you just just go for it or or did you feel, you know, that this was something that you you needed?
SPEAKER_03:I sought, I think I thought I I I know I sought validation from my colleagues, uh, from my peers. Um most of them had been in the role for a couple of years already. So it was, you know, what do you do in this situation? How have you been working? Um, have you been looking at this? Um and so you'd go and say, look, this is my plan, this is what the customer's looking for, this is where we think we're going to go, and validating it. And once you've had one or two validations that you're on the right track and you're doing the right thing, you got right, I've got this, I can do this, you know, myself now without seeking that validation. Um, again, it goes back to being organized and breaking things down into fairly simple tasks as part of the project, right? The customer needs to do this by this time. Let's work back from their deadline. What are the components of this? Which are the teams that we've got to bring in? Who are the other specialists that we need to bring in from the organization? Um, we've got pre-sales, got myself in that sales role, um, you know, working with the customer to make sure that what we are proposing is is ultimately meeting their needs. Then you've got kind of customer success and implementation, then you've got the post-sale sides of things. Um, and at the time you're also working with the vendor because you, you know, you're you're the reseller or the distributor at the time. You're not directly um uh selling the equipment as if you're the vendor, like I was at Bay Networks. Um, so you've got these multiple coordination points back to the vendor, you're negotiating discounts, um, you're you know working with the um salesperson from the vendor as well on that account, because they're ultimately trying to make sure that they are the vendor of choice in there. You've got another vendor, a competitive vendor, vying for your time as well. Are you are you putting us forward? Are you putting this? We we've got a great incentive if you put us forward, and you've got to kind of figure out what's right for the customer, but a lot of coordination uh in there. So being organized again really helped uh from that perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So it's it sounds like you should turn towards teamwork, you know, and and rather than sort of charging off your head by by yourself. And I suppose, you know, say I guess a leadership role can sometimes be seen as you know, a lonely place where you know it is you at the helm, and perhaps you know that that is it. But actually, you know, it sounds like you certainly turned then towards teamwork. And I guess looking back, I mean, we hear a lot about you know the alignment between sales and marketing teams. And obviously, back looking back at the sort of early 2000s when you were in sales, um what what did that role, how did that role prepare you for that alignment with marketing and ultimately your your marketing career after that?
SPEAKER_03:I think it gives you really good perspective because you're in in the coal face. Um you are the one that is um working with the customer, you're the one working with the leads, you're the one that is trying to build, you you've got a target, um, and you've got to get to that revenue target. Um, and you've got to do that in a way that's sustainable, you've got to do that in a way that is adding value for the customers because you need to retain them. Um and so it gives you the perspective of what it's like to be there on that coal phase, um, needing those leads, needing that demand generation, needing that awareness, that brand marketing piece. I don't think back in, if I look back in the early 2000s or late 90s, early 2000s, I don't think marketing was deemed as important as it is nowadays. Um and so whilst I I wasn't, you know, going to marketing every day and saying, I need this, I need that, we you know, you need to drive more leads for me, you're certainly aware of the activities that they're doing. It's not until you're in, you're on the marketing side that you realize just how reliant um sales are on you driving demand for them. I'm not saying you're the only one that's responsible for it because things have massively evolved and we have lots and lots of different channels now. You know, AE's creating opportunities directly, uh, we've got digital channels, we've got um SDRs or BDRs, business development, you know, inside sales, developing on behalf of sales channel side of things. But I certainly think marketing has become a lot more important and integral to driving um what sales need. So having that early experience being on the other side of it has certainly helped give me that perspective of what they need, what it what they're up against, the demands of the customer, um, the demands of the market, um, those pieces certainly help.
SPEAKER_00:And um, we've seen that over time, haven't we, where involvement from marketing is is much longer ahead of the the engagement with sales by a by a buyer, but but also there's in some cases not even any visibility of you know the call it the the dark funnel where you know people will just go straight to sales and you actually have no influence over their journey. Uh obviously that wasn't the case back then in that sort of those those 90s and early 2000s. Uh, how how do you see that today? Is that I mean that's clearly must be a big focus area for you as well, right?
SPEAKER_03:Definitely. And marketing has become so complicated. You only have to look at the uh Martech stack. And our the original diagram, whenever it came out, was you know, all these different companies in their swim lanes doing their thing. I think the current marketing stack, it it wouldn't fit on a sheet of paper that is a mile wide, right? Um, there's so many pieces of technology, there's so many things that marketing are responsible for. Um, an awful lot of that. And it's been an interesting evolution because uh I remember back in the day, there was no websites per se. You didn't go in and say, contact me. You didn't flap a trial, you didn't do any of that. I remember I didn't even have a mobile phone when I first started working. That was kind of reserved for leadership, um, as in you know, C level. Um so technology has massively evolved and allowed us to be way more connected and allowed our customers or prospects to get connected to us as a vendor. Um, so it's been an interesting evolution to watch, to see, um, having gone from kind of no website to marketing now needing to drive, as you say, there's that kind of dark funnel of demand that isn't necessarily fully understood. But you've got, you know, web, you've got all your digital mechanisms, performance marketing, growth marketing, you've got brand, um, all of the different pieces within uh, you know, much more on the product marketing side now, creative teams, um, marketing analytics, marketing operations, who are marketing operations trying to glue everything together so that you know everything works from a technology perspective. I think marketing teams have become incredibly complicated. And it's a tough job now for any CMO to get that all working together um cohesively and in a way that benefits all the other stakeholders and peers within the organization. So we probably had it quite easy at the beginning. It's now got an awful lot more complicated. Tech does help, but it also complicates it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I mean, let's let's jump forward in your in your sort of journey and your progression. You know, we look at 2011 and you you take on your first role as marketing director. Uh in in those early days, um, and I suppose, you know, also as a woman in leadership, um, were you ever underestimated at that time? And and how did you respond to that?
SPEAKER_03:It's interesting. I've I've been really lucky, I think, with my leadership peers, be they in sales, professional services, pre-sales, HR. Um I when I moved into that role, I had a very, very strong VP of AMIA, ultimately responsible. You know, they were responsible for the commercial side of the business, but acted like a general manager. And they truly understood the value of marketing, and so always had my back. And that hasn't been the case in roles since then. Um, but predominantly I I've been very lucky. But they understood that value of marketing and they were able to make sure, as that kind of GM role, that everyone was on the journey together, that we were going um from you know our current place into um a period of growth and investment. That the company that I worked for was um PE backed, um, and they had investment from a really good PE organization that was growth rather than kind of stripping the assets out and taking costs right the way down. And so they had my back when it came to the marketing initiatives that I wanted to do. And I think it only takes a couple, if you if you know yourself as a marketing leader, it only takes a couple of success metrics and knowing your numbers and showing where you are adding value for you to get buy-in. And luckily, I, you know, this this Phoebe of Amir was very, very um pro-marketing, and you're able to prove the value that you add, and they would go out and fight my corner with others who may have been more of an assayer or oh, marketing aren't really adding any value, or they're not helping me. So I got lucky in in that role. And I think knowing the stats, the figures, and and what they saw as success has been really important for me because I can then use those in subsequent roles to to show the value uh and it's been helpful having such a strong VP. I think if I'd been up against it and they didn't um value marketing, you're constantly, you know, swimming to try and stay afloat, right? And and they're chucking more water on top of you, and you're like, no, I'm I'm here, we're doing, we're doing good stuff. Um but having that support I think was really, really important. And I I got lucky in in that aspect, uh, in that aspect.
SPEAKER_00:And I mean, for somebody who's maybe watching this or listening to this and listening to you talk, um, who might not be uh yeah, as fortunate with that kind of internal support and that kind of leadership from what you've learned over time, and you know, have there been any situations where you were underestimated and have you learned anything along the way since then where you feel, okay, this is how I cope with that, this is this is how I deal with that, and this is how I know you're not.
SPEAKER_03:I will say if you are in demand marketing, I'm in demand marketing, I am driving pipeline, uh, know your numbers. You need to know your numbers inside and out. You need to be in your dashboards every single day. Um, obviously not applicable if you are a brand marketeer or or someone else. You should still be aware of that business rhythm and the numbers. But as a demand marketeer, field marketing, regional marketing, driving growth, driving pipeline, you need to know exactly what you're delivering on any given day, where you are against your target, and what are the levers that you need to move, what are the dials you need to change in order to impact that? And so you've got to understand some of the the undercurrent of the pieces, what are the channels that are driving it? Is it digital? Is it um, you know, like IE pay media, is it um events, you know, is it um our outbound BDR organization are doing really, really good job? What is it that's driving that? And so knowing your numbers at any given moment gives you the ammunition to be able to say, well, our target was this, we have delivered this, this is how we've done it, these are the highs, these are the lows, these are the things we'll definitely do again. This is what we've realized hasn't worked, and we failed fast, and we're going to flip that to what we know works. And it also gives you that ability to answer back when someone points the finger and says, Oh, marketing aren't delivering, marketing aren't doing this, because you've got an agreed set of KPIs. Um, you've got an agreed set of targets that are typically determined between sales ops and sales leadership and marketing, marketing leadership, marketing um analytics up front. And so you're then able to go in and say, We are delivering here. Um, yes, we're not doing so well here, but this is what we're doing about it. So making sure you've got that that shared understanding, but knowing your numbers and being able to speak to them with particularly your sales um stakeholders, your sales uh leaders, it's really, really important.
SPEAKER_00:You almost make it sound easy. No, it's not.
SPEAKER_03:And because they all even though the data is backing it up, there are and have been sales leaders in in my past that will pick it apart. And even when others come and say, no, no, they are really the numbers, um, that was what they delivered. They're like, no, I still don't believe it. And so you're never going to please all the people all the time. But if you know your numbers, you're data backed, you you, you know, you you can't really dispute that unless your systems are completely screwy and not not in in a good way, but you can't really dispute that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're speaking my language. Um, yeah, but you you advocate for women in business and and you have spoken publicly quite a few times about that as well. Do you remember the first time somebody looked up to you for leadership or as a leader in a professional setting? And I I suppose how how did that moment uh change you or affect you, or what did you take away from that first time?
SPEAKER_03:Um I think as as a manager of of people in marketing, you are expecting your team to come to you and ask you, and and it's your job as a leader as well to help mentor them, to nurture them, to help them blossom, to remove roadblocks. So I think I would be shocked if my team didn't do that. I think that's natural. I think interestingly, I've had an awful lot of um HR um teams or leaders come to me and ask for advice on how I handled a particular situation, or they've asked me to step into something and provide guidance to a team. Or would I mind speaking about how uh you know, either my career or my history or how I've handled a certain situation or or a role? Um, and that's happened interestingly in in quite a few roles now. Um and I think because HR wear lots of different hats, uh, you know, be it employee relations or in sometimes enablement, sometimes you know, the uh the uh learning uh and courses and and development uh for their teams, they often look to leaders within their business to come and give views. Um and I think I don't know, maybe it's because marketing, we're we're often super happy. Um most people know kind of what we do, um just come in and give that view. So I do find an awful lot of HR leaders and HR teams come to me and ask. And it isn't for a you know an employee relation situation, it's just to generally come and talk to their teams. Yeah, it's nice to give a different perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you you you said it's happened a couple of times, and yeah, you you're just musing whether that's just you know because it's the marketing role, but it's probably not comfortable talking about yourself like that. But why do you think that is that people come to you? Um, and especially perhaps in the context of leadership, what is it do you think that they see in you that um they think, oh let's let's let's talk to them about this?
SPEAKER_03:I'm I'm approachable. I'm I'm you know, I'm I'm not a chatty Kathy per se, but I'm approachable, I communicate, um, I make friends with a lot of people because I think everyone within the business, regardless of their role, is an important part of the business. And so I don't stick in my swing lane just because I'm in marketing doesn't mean, and I work with the sales or I work with pre-sales, doesn't mean they're the only teams. You know, I work with HR, both from a talent acquisition perspective from a training and learning and development perspective for my team. They help me with employee relations issues or challenges that that we might have. And so, you know, I think HR and my peers in HR are as important as any other function. So I will go and make friends with them. Um and so being that open, bubbly person that goes and has the conversation, hops in and has a coffee, I think sometimes HR can be seen as a bit scary. Um and people may sort of not be as open with them or or or not approach them as much as they should. But um yeah, all HR people are humans at the end of the day. And yes, sometimes the things they do in their role are not always the the nicest things if if you've got um redundancies or or challenges within a business, but um they're there ultimately for the greater good of the the talent and the the employees, and so I think it's important to make friends with them. So maybe that's why um they see me as a friend and and can bring me in to have a conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and and looking back at your own, yeah, I suppose a lot your your career, uh has there ever been somebody, is there somebody that you can think of that's taken you under their wing in the early stages, or maybe even now where somebody mentors you or or somebody that you look up to in terms of leadership? Is there somebody there that comes, springs to mind?
SPEAKER_03:Definitely. I've been very, very lucky. I have had, I don't think there's a single boss, single leader, a single manager that I haven't got on with that has caused me to leave an organization or has caused me to be unhappy. So I think I've been very, very lucky from that perspective because that isn't always the case. Um I had a very just a brilliant, amazing leader, only for a very short period of time. At I2. And she just, I don't know, took me under her wing, helped me see things in a slightly different lens. She had has this amazing calmness. She has this ability to see the bigger picture. She has this ability to break things down and create this kind of win-win situation. And so I was like, those are the traits I I want to exhibit, I want to take. But she was very, very good as a leader and really helped me.
SPEAKER_00:What do you think is the, if you could, if you can, even distill it down into one thing, but what do you think is the one thing, or perhaps a few things that you've taken away that you've learned from her?
SPEAKER_03:Definitely got a calmness. I'm not fiery, but I I I do get riled up about some things. But you I think a calmness and consistency, and just taking that step back, taking a breath before speaking, actioning, reacting. Or speaking, actioning. Yeah, speaking, reacting, and then actioning.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I suppose this we've spoken about this before when we when we spoke offline. We spoke about imposter syndrome, and and you've spoken about this as well. You don't like the phrase, but you do sort of uh relate to it, and and um, even though you're not a fan, but and you're clearly not an imposter. Um what sense um do you get when you have doubts and and how does that drive and and motivate you when when those doubts creep in?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And firstly, I I I don't like the phrase imposter because for me, imposter has such negative connotations. It means you are pretending to be something you're not. You're impersonating someone or something that you're not. Um, and that isn't the case when we think about what imposter syndrome actually means. Um, it's about having self-doubt, right? And that's something that is completely natural. Um and so I you can't go out and advocate that we should never use imposter syndrome ever again, but I think it is clear to, you know, it's good to make it clear that what you feel that we now coin as imposter syndrome is okay. It's natural, it's it's fine to feel. Um, I think understanding where that self-doubt has come from, why you have that self-doubt, what it is, why has it come up for this particular project or for this particular situation? And almost taking a step back, certainly for me, if I I felt it or I was unsure in a particular thing, right? What is it we got to achieve? And again, breaking it down into bite-sized chunks, understanding the art of the possible. Um is there a way we can do this by going this route or this route? What are our options? Um, and I think there are definite ways to overcome self-doubt through tools, through that validation. I spoke about it earlier, um, where I'd stepped into a very technical role and I had self-doubt about being able to do that role. So I sought validation that what I was doing and the the decisions I was making were the right ones. Um and so I think seeking that validation, um, asking the right questions, breaking it down, writing your doubts down. What is it you're you're doubting yourself about? And then actually, is that such a a big thing? No, it's it's good. I think sometimes having a little bit of doubt helps you to think more about the outcome, helps you to think more about what that project could be or should be, what you're looking to achieve, rather than rushing in, getting it done because yeah, I've got this, I you know, actually say, oh, is that the right thing to do? Maybe it's not. What are what are the other options? So I don't, yeah, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think people just need to arm themselves with some tools to to to help overcome it and seek that validation. If there is a mentor, if there is someone they're close to at work that they can ask and say, look, I'm not sure about this, can you talk it through with me? Anyone would be be willing to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And nobody's perfect, are they? Um I suppose you could look at it the other way as well, that um if you if you don't have imposter syndrome, you you you may well actually be delusional because you're not perfect. And you know, if you think you've got everything and you do everything right, then you're actually probably quite blinkered in a way, in the way you approach things and you don't consider everything or everyone around you. Uh so in in a in a sense, as you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and that's a good point, because you could this is where you end up with silos because people are in their world, they know how to do it, they've got this library, right? Oh, I you know, I I I can do, I did do it. Um, I'm just gonna do it the exact same way. And that doesn't help, you know, to iterate on things or improve them moving forward. And so you still see that, you know, I in in projects where people haven't got that self-doubt, they're not checking or they're not communicating or bringing others in to validate, to think about it from a wider lens. And so you can end up with this this silo that leads to just doing the same old. You're not innovating, you're not being agile.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I mentioned at the beginning that we've got the virtually anything goes question, and we're not there yet, um, although I'm looking forward to your question. But um, in another episode of this series, uh, I interviewed uh somebody called Charles McLaughlin. Uh, and his question uh was a hard question to answer. He asked me what has been my biggest failure. Um, and I asked him in business, or he said, No, just in life or anywhere. What's your biggest failure? And it was quite a hard question to answer. Uh and and you've spoken about handling failure before as well. You've got an interesting take on it, I think. Can you tell us a bit more about that? How do you view failure?
SPEAKER_03:Again, a bit like imposter syndrome. I don't like the word failure. I see failure, it was a practice try. Um because you you you're setting yourself goal and you know you're going to get there. You just might have three attempts at it, five attempts at it. Um and quite often you'll you'll do it, you'll get then you go, right, check, move on. And then the next thing. So I I again I don't like to think of you failed at something, you just may have tackled it in a slightly different way, you've given it a practice try. And that's given you tools, that's given you experience to approach it from a different way if it comes up again in the future. Um, and it might be something you get on the first go, it might be something that takes you five or ten years. Um look at Rory McElroy, right? I'm I'm a golfer. Um and Rory McElroy won the masters, and he has been trying. He's not been a failure because he didn't win in those previous years, they were his practice tries, and he's now done that, and he can be really proud that he's done it. And people can't say, well, he failed previously now. He didn't, those were his practice tries, and now he's he's won it. So I like to think of it like that. I think there will be disappointments with things that didn't go as you expected them to, um, or the outcome wasn't what you thought, um, or didn't deliver what you thought. But you've got the tools and that mindset and that experience and knowledge to adjust it for your next practice try. Because that next practice try actually might be the success trying.
SPEAKER_00:I think in that context, I mean you you've you've said a couple of times that you've been lucky, um, but I think you're doing yourself a disservice there. I think I think the way you talk about this, you you clearly have learned a lot along the way about you know yourself, about leadership, and and and I think, yes, maybe luck comes into that, but I do think that it it seems that you've you've forged your own career there. Um and of course, you know, who you work with, you can't you can't determine, especially if they're your superiors. But um I do think there's there's probably maybe a bit of disservice that you're doing yourself in and how how far you've come and how you've developed that. I'm I'm keen to know from you what what is leadership to you? How would you define it?
SPEAKER_03:It's a big question, and it it's I I think there are so many definitions out there. Um if I look at me as a leadership, uh me in leadership, it it's um it's about taking a team, a project, whatever you are leading, and you're doing that in a way that ultimately exceeds the objective for that team, that project. You're doing it in a way that don't get me wrong, there are probably leaders who go out there, and we see lots of um political and economic leaders out there doing, they are called leaders, but they are out there doing some very, very strange things uh at this current moment in time. Um so I think taking that team, that project, and exceeding the objective for it over a period of time. So I come into my role as VP of marketing and ultimately it's to drive the business forward. But I've got to do that in a way that I impart my vision on my team, that I am acting with integrity, that I am showing empathy, that I am making decisions, that I am leading, that I'm helping them, I'm nurturing them and making sure they blossom in their roles and giving them growth and development, that I am helping them understand that bigger picture. I think all of these things go to being a leader. I don't think you could put it down to just one thing. This is what leadership is. But you are taking something, a set of people, a concept from a start point to, and I won't call it an end point, but to to somewhere else, because then it might move on beyond that. Um so I think it's it's for me, doing it to the best of your ability, being that that leader that your your team, your peers want to work with, look up to, seek out for advice. And I think that's some of those characteristics I spoke about, kind of the the empathy, the integrity piece is is important because you could go at it like a bull in a china shop and um you're not gonna make any friends along the way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, indeed. And and I think you know, you mentioned earlier the the the the command of of numbers and the the KPIs, and of course that is important, you know, but it is from what you're saying there, it's not it's not just a title or a role, it's the human side of things, which is why people come to you that the example that you gave, but also the team that you have working um with you that you know needs to be uh able to trust you and come to you and and know that there is that empathy as well, and that all goes into being a leader. Um and and yeah, we we've we've we've you you're now VP marketing at Zen Desk, we've we've sort of tracked your career in this conversation. Um, what would your advice be to somebody who, regardless of you know, either they have an aspiration to be a leader or they are a leader already? Um what have you learned? What if what is your advice to to anybody listening to this who might be interested in that answer?
SPEAKER_03:I think be very, very clear on your vision. What is it? And and and that vision can have three, maybe five elements to it. But in your role, what is it that you are looking to do? What is it that the company needs you to do? Um, and form your vision and then be very clear and make sure that that's communicated to and agreed and communicated with your peers and your stakeholders, and then ensure that your team or the project, it's very, very clear what that vision is. And I think this is why organizations that have those three to five kind of OKRs, KPIs, the the big meaningful things that keep the organization grounded and moving in the same direction so that everyone is is um aiming for that and striving for that same goal. I think that's really important. That's not to say along the way you can't deviate and something else doesn't get added in, or you don't adjust something because you're reacting to the economy or you're reacting to market dynamics at any given moment, but being clear on that that vision with your team. We are here to do this, and this is how we will do it. These are the three or the five things that we're going to be be clear on as a team. I think that would be my single piece. Just be ultra clear on that and and stick to your guns. And yeah, as I say, it doesn't matter if you there's slight sort of nuances along the way, but your ultimate vision over you know 18 months, three years, five years, whatever it is, be be very, very clear and and and don't be afraid to overly communicate that.
SPEAKER_00:And you it's interesting because you said almost as a sort of throwaway, you said you know the vision has to be communicated and agreed. Is that the operative word here? Is it is it getting that agreement from different stakeholders and even your own team, or is there an element of actually, yes, we need to come to an agreement here, but also as a leader, I need to set that vision and you know, we need to stick to our guns and we need to carry that on. Where does that balance sit?
SPEAKER_03:That's a that's a good point. And and it is, I would hope that through my experience, I have been hired for in my roles that ability to bring that vision to life and then to execute it, uh, to execute on it and to come in and bring a different angle or a different view on things. Um there is an element of you still need agreement. I can't go out and do something completely and utterly left-field that is not aligned with the business. Um, and and you know, heaven forbid I did did that, but you know, if your goal and your that vision is ultimately aligned with with where the organization needs to go, um that conversation is just about here's my vision, and I'm sharing it with you for your agreement, for your input, for your, but ultimately, this is this is where it's not going to be too far off. There'll be a few comments, a few slights of iterations before you finalise it with your leadership, with the the the executive leadership team or your own um specific leadership team for your function, but getting that agreement and then just sticking to it. But yes, agreement is important because if you're going off like this and the rest of the organizations are like, where's she going?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. And and so I I think I think what I've learned from this conversation, we're not quite done yet. We obviously have the virtually anything goes question as well. But what I've learned from this conversation is you know, you you can experience the early leadership lessons. They may not set you up to be a leader there and then, but they they take you through, you know, they they contribute to your mindset as you as you go through into your career and through your career. Um, I've learned that you know, leadership is not necessarily just about numbers, it's it's about the human side of it. And it's not necessarily just the human side within your team, it is across teams. Um, and it's also having the human element inside of you to have the empathy um and the understanding of what goes on around you, not just within your team, but within the business as well, to be able to accomplish and agree the strategy going forward, the vision going forward, and then together pull in that direction and that it's not a lonely place necessarily as a leader. Perhaps it can be, but I think the way you described it, it seems very much a collaborative effort where perhaps you then you know lead that. But um, it it takes a village to raise a child. Is that about right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I I think so. And and and it shouldn't be a lonely place. There are lots and lots of other leaders out there, there are lots of leaders within your own organization. Don't be afraid to to have a conversation. You know, it it's I've known lots of leaders, mentor other leaders. Um, so you know, it it is we've all been there, we've all got this these great experiences. So don't be afraid to lean on that. It shouldn't be a lonely place, it should absolutely be a collaborative um team effort as leaders to to lead your teams and your organizations.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's interesting. You mentioned mentorship a couple of times, and uh we do actually, and this is this wasn't rehearsed, uh, we do, but we do have an episode uh about leadership, uh, about mentorship with uh Chelsea Baker, who's the CEO of the um National Mentoring Day. So if you are interested in mentoring or hearing more about that, um she has some great insights, um, has huge wealth of experience as well. So check out the the mentorship episode um in in series two uh if you're interested in that. Um but Emma, this has been really fascinating and interesting and really insightful. As I say, we're not done yet. We we now have the point where I get nervous, uh, and it's the the virtually anything else question, which if you don't know what it is, uh if you're new to this podcast, it is where I turn control over to Emma. She can ask me any question at all. It doesn't have to be related to what we spoke about today. I don't know what it is uh until you hear it as well. And the agreement is I will have to answer it no matter what it is. But my safety net and the one caveat is that um once I've given my answer, Emma then has to answer the same question as well. So Emma, um, I'm keen to hear what is your virtually anything goes question for me?
SPEAKER_03:My virtually anything goes question for you is what was the smallest career decision that you ever made that snowballed into something huge?
SPEAKER_00:Um I can think of a few. I'm just trying to think which one is the small the the smallest. Um I'll touch on a few briefly, but I think I'll come come to one. There are some, you know, when you look back, it it it it does tend to work together, doesn't it? Decisions you make and you end up somewhere where you are now today. Um very early on, I I was born and raised in Germany, um, and I did a a sort of business school slash um trainee program degree um which didn't include marketing, it was more on the sort of sales and and sort of engineering side, I guess, trade, international trade. And I decided that wasn't enough, and I wanted to actually go into marketing and I decided to go to university in Scotland, which actually, in the grand scheme of things, because it's one of the earliest decisions, snowballed into everything. I met my wife there. Um I ended up in a career in marketing, uh, which I studied there, and obviously that was the right decision. Um, and still many friends I have today are from my time there. Um I think there's other areas then as well where you make a small decision. Um and perhaps it was out of adversity. I I we moved to Dubai in 2007, and I remember being there, I I I joined a an event agency. And in my first week, we were out, yes, Dubai is lots of yeah, you have lots of fun. You go out to a to a bar and and and I got chatting to these two guys, and and they said, Oh, who do you work for? And I gave the name of the the agency, and and they they both raised their eyebrows and said, um is that is that so and so's company? And and I said, Yes, it is. Um and it was a partnership, so there was sort of two two leaders in that, um, but one owned the the organization. And they said, if I can give you one piece of advice, get out of there, get out of there while you can. Uh don't don't stay. I know you've just arrived, and you know, in Dubai might not be quite as easy to change because you're under the you know part of a visa and so on there, but get out of there as quickly as you can. And I I decided not to listen to that. Um and I stayed and subsequently that it it turned out the way they I think had anticipated it, it didn't work out. Um but what that set into it that the snowball effect of that was that um we ended up as part of the um 2008 financial crisis leaving Dubai in 2009. Um there was not much going on, and I then joined um a company called On24, um the webinar platform, um, and spent six years there, and ultimately that set me up for the company I run today, made to see, where obviously webinars are a very big portion of that, live streaming and video production and obviously podcast production. Um I think had I made a different decision at the time, I wouldn't have I may have stayed in the company for much longer, I may have stayed in Dubai for much longer, I wouldn't have ended up where I am today, doing what I am to am today. And my wife said to me the other day after we came back from holiday, um, yeah, I said it's the first day back tomorrow, this was on on Sunday, and and she said, you know, you look forward to going back, don't you? I said, Yeah, I do. And she said, that's that's that's nice. It's it's it's good that you know you look forward to going back to work after holiday because not everybody necessarily has that. And I think that decision to stay, even though it wasn't the right one and it turned into something bad, did lead to a series of events that ended up where I am today. And I think um for that I'm very thankful because I, as I say, I enjoy the Monday morning after holiday.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome.
SPEAKER_00:So uh, what about you? I'll turn this question back on you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so so my small career decision. So prior to to joining Bay Networks, I was doing a little bit of temp work um while I figured out what I wanted to do, and I was working at a um a very, very small family-run uh recruitment agency, just actually in in-house doing the timesheets, a bit of admin, you know, seeing candidates in, um, that sort of thing. And this job came in and they needed a temporary uh person for a week. Um, and for whatever reason, I don't know if it was during the holidays, they couldn't get anyone. And so the MD at the time she said, Well, you're gonna have to go, Emma. And I was like, Well, I don't know anything about this. She went, I've got this, you can do this. It's only for a week. Don't worry, you know, it'll be fine. So that one week uh was at a company called Well Fleet Communications, which in turn became Bay Networks. And uh I went for the week, I absolutely loved it. I was reporting to this phenomenal lady um who's again got very, very close to and whose daughter ended up being a bridesmaid for me um, you know, some some years later. Um, but they said, well, actually looking to fill this role permanently. Would you like it? Um and I was like, oh gosh, how do I go back and tell tell the MD you've put me in temporarily into this role? Um, and at the time I you know, I I didn't have a view on tech. I didn't understand what what networking really was. Um, you know, we were just just getting connected. We were putting 10-based T hubs in in the risers in in this small office over in Marlowe and um, you know, getting connected. There wasn't email in the way we we know it. And so I didn't really understand technology. I just remember coming home and and um saying to to um my my boyfriend at the time, and he said, Oh no, that's that's really, really big. You should you should go for it. I was like, so I went back to the MD and I said, Um, I don't know if they've been in touch, but they they've asked for me um permanent. She said, yes, no, they they have, and I was going to have a chat with you. So, look, I would never want to hold your career back as sad as we would be about losing you from our office. This is ultimately food for your career. So I ended up getting this permanent job in kind of inside sales at Wealth Leet, which then became uh later on Bay Networks in in networking. And it was a phenomenal, phenomenal boom time. Networking was taking off, switches um were were um just coming out onto the market. Um, and there was an awful lot of money in the industry, and you know, everyone wanted to be connected, everyone, there was you know, all this, this, the routers and the hubs and the switches all all coming to to the market. And so I actually ended up being employee number 14 at what ended up being ultimately the very, very end of it, Nortel. Um, so wealth leak became Bay Networks. Um, we were Bay networks for for several years, and then just um just before I left, it became Nortel. So um financially it was uh very, very beneficial for me uh and enabled me to buy my first house. But it was also a brilliant introduction into the world of tech, um, which has intrigued me ever since. Um I've gone from that hardware side of things through to software and now into kind of the AI era. So had I not gone for that one week of temp cover um from the recruiter, I would never have moved into this this industry, I don't think.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, that is a is a big impact from a small decision, isn't it? And one you hadn't even probably anticipated yourself.
SPEAKER_03:That was Oh, not at all. Not at all. There I was doing some some work for recruitment agency, not not thinking about tech or where I want it to go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I I think that's that's a very encouraging note uh for anybody listening to this who is perhaps at the start of their career, you know, it it's you sometimes you don't know the decisions you make and what they'll end up in, but making that decision can can change your life and can set off a series of events that um are gonna lead to a very exciting journey. Um Emma, thank you so much. And and for our audience as well, if you enjoyed this conversation, we would love for you to to share this episode with somebody that you think would enjoy listening to it or watching it as well. Uh, thank you so much for listening and joining us on this podcast. Um we we always have you know the the greatest respect and and and for for our audience to spend so much time with us. We know these episodes can be long, but I think they're incredibly insightful. And Emma, I really enjoy listening to your story, exploring that with you a little bit more. So thank you so much for joining us on this episode as well.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you very much. It's been uh my pleasure to be here. I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00:Wonderful. Thank you so much. And uh hopefully we'll see you again very, very soon in another episode. Um, as an audience member, come and join us um in these other episodes that we have in this series. Until then, thank you very much and take care.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. For other interesting topics, go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. See you next time.
