Virtually Anything Goes - a WebinarExperts Podcast
The "Virtually Anything Goes" podcast covers a wide range of topics centered around digital events, webinars, and livestreaming - as well as virtually anything else.
Lev Cribb talks to his guests about their passions in business and what drives them to achieve great results, while leaving plenty of space for their personal stories and achievements as well.
Listen in to hear, and learn, from subject matter experts and leaders in their field.
Virtually Anything Goes is a Webinarexperts.com podcast
Virtually Anything Goes - a WebinarExperts Podcast
Overcoming Addiction and Stigma, with Professor Derek Heim - Virtually Anything Goes Podcast
Is addiction really a brain disease, or have we been misled? On this eye-opening episode of the Virtually Anything Goes Podcast, we sit down with Professor Derek Heim from Edge Hill University, a leading voice in the psychology of addiction.
In this episode, Professor Derek Heim challenges the traditional narrative by suggesting that addiction may be more of a societal label for undesirable behaviors rather than an actual disorder. We dissect the nuances between habits and addictions, urging listeners to consider these behaviors as normal actions with adverse consequences rather than pathologies. This thought-provoking discussion aims to reframe how we understand and address addiction, offering a fresh perspective that highlights the power of individual agency in overcoming addictive behaviors.
Stigma is a major barrier preventing people from seeking help, and we dive into its ramifications on health and socio-economic status. From the ethical dilemmas around gambling advertisements to the necessity of supportive environments, we tackle the multifaceted approach needed to combat addiction.
Professor Derek Heim sheds light on the importance of specialized support programs for veterans and the significant role friends and family play in recovery. We also explore societal strategies for reducing substance consumption and the positive impact of peer influence. With this episode, we aim to reduce stigma, foster understanding, and empower listeners to believe in their capacity for change. Join us for an enlightening conversation that could redefine how we collectively combat addiction.
If you have been affected by any of the topics discussed in this episode, take a look at these additional resources:
- UK SMART Recovery: https://smartrecovery.org.uk/
- The Adullam Programme: https://www.adullamprogramme.co.uk/
- NHS: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/addiction-support/drug-addiction-getting-help/
- UK Government Debt Advice: https://www.gov.uk/debt-advice
This episode is part of our Expert Series, where we speak to experts from a variety of different backgrounds, including Sleep & Insomnia, Addiction, Public Speaking, Eye Surgery, Crisis Communications, and even Magic! So be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes on our Youtube Channel at @WebinarExperts
Find out more about Professor Derek Heim at https://research.edgehill.ac.uk/en/persons/derek-heim
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For more information, content, and podcast episodes go to https://www.webinarexperts.com
Connect with Lev Cribb at https://www.linkedin.com/in/levcribb/
Speaking to people struggling with addiction, they shared with me that it's the stigma around addiction that prevents them from admitting they have a problem in the first place and seeking help. So how do we remove, I guess, as a society, the stigma around the word addiction?
Lev Cribb:Welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our expert series, and each episode features a new expert from a range of interesting topics. Throughout the series, you'll hear about sleep and insomnia, addiction, mentoring, crisis communication, sales, eye surgery and even magic communication, sales, eye surgery and even magic. You don't want to miss what the experts have to share, so subscribe and follow this podcast now, and then sit back and listen in.
Lev Cribb:Hello and welcome to Virtually Anything Goes podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Derek H, who is a professor of psychology at Edge Hill University in England, specializing in the area of addiction, and has published a variety of papers on this topic too. Heim is is also the editor-in-chief for the Addiction Research and Theory Journal, a cross-disciplinary journal that publishes articles on psychological, social, economic, epidemiologic and medical and other aspects of addictive behavior. And if that wasn't enough, Professor Heim is is also chair of the board at the charity UK Smart Recovery. Uk Smart Recovery empowers people with practical skills, tools and support so that they may manage their addictive behavior and lead satisfying and meaningful lives. Professor Heim, welcome to the podcast. I'm delighted you could join me.
Professor Derek Heim:Thanks for having me. Please call me Derek. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Lev Cribb:Wonderful. Thank you very much. If this is your first time listening to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast, stick around until the very end, when I turn control over to Professor Heim, to Derek, and he can ask me his Virtually Anything Goes question. This can be any question at all, but I won't know what it is until Derek asks me the question. So it could literally virtually be about anything. The only caveat is that once I've given my answer, derek will also have to answer the same question. So, derek, allow me to open with this question Can the battle against addiction be won either on an individual level or on a societal scale?
Professor Derek Heim:Well, I think the battle of addiction is going to be with us. It's an intractable human problem, really. You know people. Life tends to throw things at people that people struggle to deal with and to cope with, and so it depends what you mean by winning the battle of addiction. If you think we're going to, you know, cure addiction once and for all and people will never, ever struggle with addiction. I think the answer is probably no, but I do think we can. We can deal better with addiction. Our response as a society to addiction problems can be better and can make progress in the battle.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, good. Well, progress is always good, and I think I want to start with a few perhaps more back to basic questions for listeners perhaps who aren't as familiar with the subject matter as you are. But how do you define addiction? Are there different types of addiction? I'm thinking sort of psychological addiction, physical addiction. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Professor Derek Heim:Okay. So I have what is probably a minority view in the field of addiction. So most people in the field would define addiction as either a brain disease or some form of disorder. Essentially, dominant conceptualizations, dominant ways of thinking about addiction tend to, I would argue, medicalize and individualize the problem. So, to a greater or lesser extent, those accounts of addiction think that people become overpowered and, to a greater or lesser extent, lose control over their behaviour. My take is slightly different to that.
Professor Derek Heim:I don't think that addiction changes the fundamental basis of human behaviour with respect to particular behaviours and I actually think that addiction, to a large extent, is actually an explanation we as a society use for undesirable behaviour. So we tend to use addiction to explain problematic behavior. You know, drug use, gambling, sex, things that people struggle with and have problems with. We don't, for example, evoke the concept of addiction when explaining behaviors that we like and approve of. So we wouldn't, for example, seriously refer to someone who practices playing the piano constantly, as they are addicted to playing the piano. We would say they're dedicated to playing the piano.
Lev Cribb:Interesting, yeah, and I think that probably points towards a certain stigma as well. I'm sure we'll dive into that a little bit more. I mean, we often hear statements like I'm addicted to chocolate, I'm addicted to YouTube reels, you know, and with the explanation you gave, is everyone addicted in that sense to something, or is there a difference between habits and addictions? Can you talk to us a little bit more about kind of just the delineation of that? Perhaps?
Professor Derek Heim:So in my view there is probably no substantive difference in, you know, pursuing a behavior at the cost of others. You know that could be a positive behavior, it could be a negative behavior. I think we need to stop, you know, pathologizing addictive behaviors. I need to start this conceptualizing as normal behaviors, um, that you know have adverse consequences. But you know a lot of behaviors are dangerous. You know human beings frequently do reckless and potentially dangerous behavior. You know they free climb, have unprotected sex, um all sorts of things. But we don't tend to conceptualize them quite in the same way.
Professor Derek Heim:And I actually think that conceptualizing addictive behaviors as sort of uncontrollable behaviors is potentially damaging because essentially what we're doing is we're sort of telling people, you know, don't start smoking, don't engage in X behavior, because you'll become addicted and you won't be able to stop behavior because you'll become addicted and you won't be able to stop. And we know from a lot of evidence that most people who suffer, quite you know, serious addictions, as we call them, will at some point stop and most people will stop, you know, through their own volition. So I think it's unhelpful to persuade people initially to say don't stop, you know you're going to become addicted and you won't have control over your behavior. With a proviso actually you can overcome it with sufficient willpower. So I think there's a contradiction in the concept of addiction in that it conflates a free will you can stop and non-relational. You know no free will explanations you can't stop. You know either you can stop or you can't stop. You know either you can stop, but you can't stop. You can't be a little bit pregnant, right?
Lev Cribb:yeah, so so from your point of view and you explained it briefly at the beginning that it's, it's a case of um in all, or in most cases, it, it can be overcome on your own.
Professor Derek Heim:I think, I think. I think people can and do overcome addictions, and most people can do overcome addictions with no support, or well, with support often, but, you know, through their own accord. They don't necessarily have therapy or medicine. Unassisted recovery is the norm in the field. Okay, so it doesn't mean to say that support doesn't play an important role in helping people overcome addiction or in helping people who are affected by addiction.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, okay. And if we look at the body and the brain and what happens to the body and the brain when addiction develops and sort of takes hold, and is that different for adults versus the brains of children, how does that work, sort of from, I guess, both a psychological and, I guess, a physical point of view?
Professor Derek Heim:Okay. So again, I've probably got a slightly different take to what you would hear from other experts in the field. So currently, neuroscientific explanations of addiction are the sort of dominant focus in the literature and a lot of this work focuses on doing fMRI brain scans of people to sort of look at potential brain changes that happen as a function of engaging in addictive behaviors. And you know there are changes that take place in the brain.
Professor Derek Heim:Some people think that the brain sort of gets hijacked. But I would argue that understanding what happens in the brain as a function of people taking substances, for example, doesn't allow us to sort of say people have no choice in whether or not they take substances. So just because we understand that the brain, you know the brain changes in response to all types of behaviours. You know if I go on a walk, that's going to be reflected in my brain. But just to sort of say, oh, because your brain reacts to going on a walk, it doesn't allow me to say that I don't have a choice but to go on the walk. I think people have choices when it comes to making decisions with regards to substance use behaviors.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, and I suppose there may be some people listening who have struggled with addiction, who might be in recovery as well, who think that well, that seems a very difficult process. I've tried that before. In view of the definition of addiction that you mentioned there, how can it be overcome practically? If we look at really the practical steps towards that, what path would be the right one to go down, both in society as well individually, to address that?
Professor Derek Heim:Well, I think the first thing to acknowledge is that, you know, addiction problems are, you know, essentially caused through interaction of different elements. So on the one hand, we've got you know a famous sociologist in America called these influences, drug set and setting. So we have the drug or activity itself and the pharmacological effects or psychopharmacological effects that has. We have the set, what we bring as an individual to the behavior in question, and we have the setting, the wider social context. My view is that our approach to tackling addiction have concentrated too much on the psychopharmacological aspects and the individual aspects, and I actually think we as a society have more of a responsibility to support people who are struggling in particular aspects of their life. So I would also say that it's not necessarily easy to overcome addictive problems for pharmacological reasons, for psychological reasons and for social reasons. You know, I am in no way trying to downplay the the effort and the difficulty it takes to overcome addiction. Yeah, I just think that at a fundamental level and that this is something that should give us all hope.
Professor Derek Heim:No, there's lots and lots of people who have struggled with addictions, quite serious addictions, and at some point in their lives would have said I can't stop, I can't change this behavior.
Professor Derek Heim:It's overwhelming, you know. But the beautiful thing, I suppose, about the human condition is you know people, even in those seemingly hopeless decisions, most of those people will at some point overcome their addiction through a combination of willpower, through learning to lead a more balanced lifestyle, through reconfiguring how they think they are. So we know, for example, that a crucial aspect to overcoming addiction is to change how we think about ourselves, is to change our identity, change who we identify with, change what gives us meaning in our lives. So I think it's those kind of things, and they're not going to be easy and they're going to take time and people will fail. You know relapse is the norm in the field as people recover from addiction. But what should keep us all going is that most people will succeed and I believe that, essentially, people can always overcome addiction. Some don't manage for a variety of reasons, but the vast majority do so I think that should give us all hope.
Lev Cribb:Indeed, and I think what you describe is very much. It seems like it's an individual approach. You mentioned the kind of individual approach it's. It's this is. You mentioned the kind of individual it's. It's different for everybody. Um, the, the, the. It's the same, challenge, the same. You know it's it's, it's ultimately addiction, um, but but it is individual. The way the approach happens. Is that well?
Professor Derek Heim:well. Well, I was going to actually, so maybe I mischaracterized my thinking slightly. Well, I do think individuals obviously play a massive role. I think so. For example, the organization I chair called Smart Recovery UK. We have a program that's specifically targeted at the friends, supporting friends and family who have individuals in their lives who are struggling with addiction problems, and one of the key things that program emphasizes and actually to support others with recovery.
Professor Derek Heim:The first step to that is actually a little bit counterintuitive is to look out for yourself. For yourself is to set boundaries and let go of the guilt that's associated with, say, your son or daughter struggling with addiction, and that actually, that sort of self-care will actually, I believe, facilitate individuals taking responsibility for their own recovery as well. So I think, actually, you know, addiction problems can be worsened by, you know, social contacts, but they can also be made better by social contacts. You know friends and family. So I think, yes, ultimately individuals have to change their behavior, but I think they can be supported in doing so quite effectively. And organizations like Smart Recovery, mutual self-help groups, where people who have got similar issues meet regularly and discuss their struggles that can be a really valuable way of social support. So emphasize that. Look, we're not in this alone. There's other people going through the same issues. They have the same feelings of guilt and despair, but you know, together we can give each other strength and overcome these behaviors.
Lev Cribb:It's interesting you mentioned the I suppose the people around you as well. You know family, friends, co-workers and so on. In your opinion, what type of addiction is the most harmful, both in terms of health impact as well as impact on family and friends and co-workers? Is there such a thing that one type of addiction is more harmful than another, or is it really all all equal?
Professor Derek Heim:well, I think at some level all addictions have the potential to play havoc to individuals lives and to the lives of, you know, friends, family and those around them.
Professor Derek Heim:Um, somewhat counterintuitively probably, some of the legal types of addictions, such as addiction to alcohol, are probably more harmful than other types of addictions and there's various reasons for that.
Professor Derek Heim:So, for example, a lot of opioids I mean synthetic opioids can be very, very strong and maybe a different kettle of fish Opioids can be very, very strong and maybe a different kettle of fish. But as a general rule, you know, alcohol is probably a more harmful substance to the body than you know, for example, some other types of drugs that are more similar to, say, endorphins that we produce in our body ourselves. So I think the type of substance plays a particular role on you know how damaging it is to the body. And then often it's not necessarily the behavior that's necessarily damaging, but it's also the difficulty of, you know, feeding an expensive habit, shall we say. So I think addiction problems are not just the sort of immediate health risks posed by, say, a substance. They are also concerned to do. You know, if you want to sustain a serious heroin habit, you know most people will have to resort to, you know, to crime or prostitution or something, to be able to fund that, and that's, that's, that's a problem.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, and I suppose if we look at the financial aspect, gambling will be in there as well. I would have thought, right.
Professor Derek Heim:Oh, very much. So. I mean, I think it's slightly perverse that, on the one hand, we've got gambling platforms, we're making millions and millions and millions of pounds, whilst on the other hand, we have got literally lives being, livelihoods being destroyed through gambling, and I think this is again one of those areas where we, as society, I think need to take more responsibility for individuals affected. You know, gambling adverts, you know I think it's morally wrong for people to get tremendously rich on, essentially on the misery of others. So I think, I think we, just society, need to step in and change the rules with regards to gambling advertising, and the industry needs to be much better regulated yeah, it's.
Lev Cribb:It's an interesting one because I I recall about a year, year and a half ago, I was going through my social media feed which I don't do very often and there was a lot of gambling adverts there. I don't know why they targeted me, but age group or I don't know gender, whatever it is how I was profiled, but it was there. So I sort of said, you know, show less of this, you know the option that you have there, and it was instantly replaced with another gambling company.
Professor Derek Heim:Yeah, I mean it's interesting.
Lev Cribb:It just went deeper and deeper. I counted it must have been about 25, 30 times and there was always another one to replace it and it was incessant. I don't know whether that was just a stream specifically for the gambling advert category or whether it was all advert, uh, advert categories, but just was full of gambling. I don't know. But it was just. There was more and more there all the time well, imagine how, you know.
Professor Derek Heim:For you that was a a mild annoyance, I would say. But imagine someone who's you know had struggled with addiction problems, with gambling problems, and you know, was pursuing a recovery. To be constantly bombarded with adverts for gambling is going to be more than a mild annoyance for those people. So I think we need to change our approach to that.
Lev Cribb:Absolutely. I think many of us have a superficial awareness of the impact of addiction on the individual. But I just want to dive a little bit deeper, I suppose, into the topic because I think there's a lot of things we may not be aware of. As individuals, as lay people, you obviously know a lot more about this. But in speaking to people struggling with addiction, they shared with me that it's the stigma around addiction that prevents them from admitting they have a problem in the first place and seeking help. So how do we remove, I guess, as a society, the stigma around the word addiction and removing that so actually folks can feel okay to ask for help in the first place, Because it sounds from people I've spoken to that that is already a barrier to recovery, because they don't want to admit it and want to ask for help because of the stigma surrounded by it.
Professor Derek Heim:How do we approach that? Well, I think there's a variety of things that have been happening in the field to try and remove stigma associated with addiction. So we tend no longer to speak of alcoholics, we tend to use people with substance use disorders. So I think changing the language is a very important aspect to reducing stigmas associated with addiction. Addiction is one of the most stigmatized behaviors out there behaviors out there. More recently there's been some calls to sort of try and differentiate between undesirable behavior and stigma. So at some level, I suppose, when a behavior is disapproved of by society socially disapproved society that can also act as a sort of an impetus for people to change their behaviour. You know, whenever you go out you behave like you know, behave unsocially, and your friends are telling you you're going to stop behaving in that way because it's not cool, you know. So it's a fine balance that's supposed to be struck between society nudging people on to change their behaviour for the better whilst not stigmatising the behaviour at the same time. So I think, you know, changing language changing is one step in the right direction, I suppose, and my whole thing about sort of not thinking of addiction as this special disorder or disease might actually go some way.
Professor Derek Heim:On the one hand, people argue you know, if addiction is a disease, then it's not people's fault, and how can you be stigmatized when it's not their fault? The problem with conceptualizing addiction as a disease or which people have no control, is that, as I was arguing earlier, it sort of removes. You know, it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, if people start by believing that they are unable to change their behavior, despite us knowing that people regularly change their behavior, then that sort of undermines self-efficacy, and self-efficacy people's belief in the ability to change behavior is one of the best predictors of recovery from addiction. So I think we need to strike a balance between, you know, not mystifying the behavior. We mystify addictive, addictive behaviors. Rather than talking about wants and desires, we talk about craving and withdrawal. I think one way to destigmatize the behavior is also just to sort of conceptualize in more normal language, you know, as as a behavior, as a behavior that we all encounter to varying degrees in in many situations in our lives yeah.
Lev Cribb:So what I thought was really interesting, the way you summarize it just before, then saying, by by calling it a disease, you effectively are removing and paraphrasing so tell me if I'm wrong by removing so, by calling it as a disease, you are removing, effectively, level of control, perceived control, from the person struggling with addiction, um, and saying, well, it is a disease, therefore it needs to be medically treated, and therefore it goes into the realm of, you know, the medical treatment itself, which the individual can't control and therefore they lose that. That level of control of actually influencing their own recovery in the first place is. Is that, am I understanding that right?
Professor Derek Heim:Yes, basically, I think how we think about a behaviour, how we conceptualise behaviour, dictates how we respond to it. So if we conceptualise a behaviour as something beyond people's control, because it's a disease, then people will respond to a greater or lesser extent to it. In those terms, you know what's the point in trying a disease. You know that's not necessarily helpful. I would argue.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, I was. I was talking to somebody that I know and they shared with me that they struggled. Just going back to the point that you just made about stigma, they struggled, knowing struggle with opening up and asking for help. They reached the end of the path before they hit rock bottom. Do you have any advice for people who are struggling with addiction on how they can better open up and ask for help before it's too late, before they lose everything? Is there any advice you can share on that one?
Professor Derek Heim:they lose everything. Is there any advice you can share on that one? But I think I think one of the things that everyone should be aware is that a lot of people are going through these kinds of issues and that support is out there. Um, and you know that step in in seeking support, going to smart recovery or other organizations. Um, you know, at at any stage you know, often, when people start realizing, oh, maybe there's something wrong with my particular behavior, you know it's probably better to seek support earlier than later. And I mean the whole thing about for smart recovery. At least it's about a balanced lifestyle.
Professor Derek Heim:It's not necessarily, you know, about people you know never being able to drink another drop of alcohol. A lot of people will recover from the issues and develop more sensible strategies for drinking moderately, for example. So it's not an all or nothing solution either. I think sometimes, if your favorite thing in the world is to drink alcohol, the prospect of never, ever being able to touch another drop of alcohol will probably not induce you to go and seek support for your alcohol consumption. But the knowledge that you know there's lots of different forms of recovery, I think is one way that can help.
Professor Derek Heim:I think more widely and this is an issue we have, you know, as a society. We sort of other people with substance use behaviours. We think it's an individual problem. People have a disease or a disorder, it's their problem. But I think once we start to think of addiction as a more normal behaviour, then that should hopefully also reduce the barrier that people experience to sort of confessing that they have this issue, that they have this disorder. Because you know, if we conceptualize addiction more as a normal behavior, then that should lower those barriers to actually acknowledging. Maybe I need to think about changing my behavior.
Lev Cribb:The answer you gave just before this question. Actually, I'm just thinking about it. I suppose on a societal and generational scale, we're actually seeing Gen Z looking at alcohol consumption very differently than, for example, gen X, where in the 90s and early 2000s there was a very different kind of behaviour around alcohol than there is now and a lot of. For example, if you look at universities, student unions take a very different approach to having bars or pubs on campus, for example, or even just individual behaviour is very different. The approach and the view of alcohol is very different, with many young people not drinking at all because of, I'm assuming, what they've seen the previous generation do and how they behaved. And going back to your point about that's not cool. I think we're seeing that potentially play out. So I suppose there was a stigma that they perceived where they thought, yeah, that's not for me. Would you agree with that kind of trend and the kind of generational change?
Professor Derek Heim:Oh, definitely, definitely. I think, when it comes to alcohol behaviors at least, there's definite trend, in many Western countries in particular, that you know know, alcohol consumption has reduced quite, quite dramatically. Um, and there's, you know, potentially various reasons for that. I would say, though, that at the same time, you know that's probably one of the you know, we, we tend to often think, you know, say, for example, when we think about global warming, or something we think that you know, or the future, then the next generation is going to solve us, you know, and they're. When we think about global warming, or something we think that you know, or the future, the next generation is going to solve us, you know, and they're going to think about it differently. Actually, interestingly, alcohol, you know, sex, drugs and rock and roll, I suppose, are one of the few things where the next generation is actually quite different to us, actually quite different to us in many ways.
Professor Derek Heim:The next generation is actually is more similar than different to us, which, for, for you know other aspects of you know I don't think we can necessarily rely on younger people to, you know, reduce, you know our reliance on carbon, carbon fuel, for example. Yeah, you know fossil fuels as a result, but, yes, there's definitely a trend to to less alcohol consumption and, I suppose, a more health conscious approach to to living amongst young people. Yeah, so, so, so again, I think this is a really nice example of how, you know, society can change. It's not inevitable that we live in a society where alcohol plays such a massive role in people's lives and, you know, other ways of dealing with substances are possible.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, I mean you're chair of the board at a charity called UK Smart Recovery. You mentioned it there before as well. What role do charities play in helping people to overcome their addiction? Can you tell us a little bit more about practically what UK Smart Recovery does?
Professor Derek Heim:Well.
Professor Derek Heim:So UK Smart Recovery has an approach to supporting people with addictions through regular mutual support meetings which has four pillars.
Professor Derek Heim:I suppose the first pillar is of building and maintaining motivation, because to overcome a behaviour, an ingrained behaviour, it is difficult, as I was saying, and so you essentially have to stay motivated and have to keep on trying, despite the inevitable knockbacks.
Professor Derek Heim:It helps people cope with their urges and their strong feelings of wanting to undertake the behaviour and, more generally, I suppose it teaches techniques for managing thoughts, feelings and behaviours to lead a more balanced lifestyle and in many ways I suppose those kind of principles that guide smart recovery. You know they're useful for anyone. You know whether or not you have addiction problems or not. And one of the things our charities recently started doing is we have developed specialist programs. So we've got a specialist program for veterans um, who disproportionately suffer from addiction issues, I suppose. But as I was saying earlier, we also support friends and family and the whole key to that is that actually to be able to help someone with addiction problems, the first key key is to help yourself, you know, and to find some sense of normality again and strength and ways in which you know to support others.
Professor Derek Heim:That come from the you know, come from not a point in panic and not knowing what to do, actually just to ground yourself and then, in a more considerate way, try and support others.
Lev Cribb:You know loved ones with with their behavior yeah, yeah, clearly, family and friends are incredibly important and obviously if, especially if they're aware if somebody is struggling with that, with that, can you, can you tell us a bit more how you see the kind of role of friends and family and perhaps some practical do's and don'ts that they, you know, can or shouldn't do in trying to help?
Professor Derek Heim:to help. I think practical do's and don'ts are. I mean, the first thing, I suppose, is that I think when a friend or family member develops, you know, problematic behaviours, addictions, you know that question of why and the guilt and the shame that is experienced, I think that's, and the guilt and the shame that is experienced, I think that's a normal response, I suppose. But the thing I think SMART does very well is to not you know you've got to see through that shame and stigma wood you know you can't see the trees for the wood, I suppose and sort of overcome that and to sort of get that balance in your life. You know, set boundaries, that you are comfortable with those kind of things. The counterintuitive is, I think, you need to look after yourself because, yes, another person might be, you know, have real issues, but you will also have issues as a result of their behavior and you need to get on top of your response before helping others.
Lev Cribb:Yeah, what else is needed to accelerate the path to reducing addiction in society? I mean, we've spoken about a lot of different aspects. Is there anything else? There's clearly never going to be a quick fix. There's not going to be, you know, a one thing that will solve everything. But are there any other things that we haven't covered so far that make a positive, long-term change to kind of the situation we're facing around addiction?
Professor Derek Heim:I think, counterintuitively somewhat. So, whilst individuals, you know, have a disproportional burden and are affected quite dramatically often by, you know see, alcohol problems or whatever, actually, if we sort of take a societal angle, then what we actually need to do is we need to reduce overall consumption for everyone, so it's not just those with addictive behaviors, who, who, who need to, you know, drink less alcohol. It's everyone who needs to drink less alcohol actually, and we as a society, I suppose, need to develop a more sensible approach to these particular substances and behaviors and, as I was touching on earlier, you know that includes, you know we need to think carefully about whether or not we should allow them, gambling adverts to be done. We should, we should think carefully about, you know, whether it is right or sensible for alcohol to be as widely available and as cheap as it is. Those kind of macro level we would call them societal responses are something I think we need to pursue.
Professor Derek Heim:I also think that at the sort of in sociology I think it's called the meso level, I don't know how you pronounce it it's a sort of group level, I think you know. One other thing that I think there's a big potential is that you know that friendship groups, people's peers, can play a much more important role in supporting people to engage in more responsible forms of behavior. You know, if someone's behaving out of order, you know we would often tell them that, but there shouldn't be. You know, if someone's drinking too much, we as friends should be comfortable and sort of reining them in a little bit. So I think again, if we take responsibility for our friends as much and take responsibility for ourselves, then that can, can, can do play an important role in in helping tackling addiction problems yeah, it's.
Lev Cribb:It's interesting actually that one, because it does remind me of my friendship group growing up, when we were sort of, you know, 10, 11, 12 onwards, um, and there was a group of about eight of us and, um, there was a very strong sense around smoking that anybody who, even you know, made any attempts to try and get a cigarette from somewhere was was immediately shot down and and said you know what, why, why, what, why are you doing this? You know that that's not who you are, um, and a very strong holding to account even at that age. Um, and actually looking now at the same group of friends, none of them spoke, and it's kind of interesting that it's carried through, you know, but I don't know where that came from, whether it was just upbringing or whether it was. Somebody suggested it at some point and then one person said it and everybody else latched onto it. But that was a very strong sense very early on.
Professor Derek Heim:I think that makes a really nice point actually, because we tend to, in the substance use arena, talk about peer pressure and peers and groups being a bad influence. People lose their individual identity when they go out with others and start behaving in antisocial ways, engage in substance use and behaviors and all that kind of thing. All that kind of thing. Actually there's a lot of evidence suggests that groups can do good and that actually the groups can actually encourage pro-social behaviours, can encourage sensible lifestyle choices, and I think they're an untapped resource really that we as society need to make better use of that. You know, all our behaviours occur within the social context, in a social setting, and I think my whole point is, if we individualise, behaviours occur within the social context, in a social setting. And I think my whole point is if we individualise behaviours and only make them about the individual, we kind of lose the power that we have as a society, within groups, to facilitate behaviour change. So I think groups can be a force for good as they were in your case.
Lev Cribb:Yes, absolutely yeah.
Lev Cribb:No, yeah, no, no, and I still, I mean I hadn't thought about them for a while, but I do.
Lev Cribb:I do think back to it, you know, occasionally, and and see the positive impact they they, we had on each other. That's very good. Um, we're not quite done yet, but I just want to say it's I've learned a lot and and it's it's interesting to see you know your perspective and and and how you look at it and and even, as you said, it's slightly different from perhaps a sort of different approach that is perhaps more known and more adopted. But I think it's really interesting to kind of look at things in different ways and I really appreciate you sharing what you shared, because I think there's a lot in there that I wasn't aware of and I hope it's the same for our audience. But, as I said, we're not done yet because we do have the virtually anything goes question, which is where you get to ask me a question rather than me asking you. I don't know what it is, so I'm not prepared for it, but I do have my safety net that you have to answer the same question after I've given my answer.
Professor Derek Heim:So I'll hand the control over to you, well first of all, many thanks for having me, and I enjoyed our little conversation. My question is as follows so our eldest daughter, who's 18, finished school this year, is leaving home tomorrow.
Lev Cribb:If you were me, what advice would you give her? I just catapulted nearly eight years forward and I hadn't thought about that yet. Well, I would like to think that you have raised your children well and that you will have instilled in them a sense of responsibility and instinct, and I would probably advise in your position, or if I was in the same position follow your instinct when you're not unsure about what decision to make. Look inside of you and follow your instinct. Um, before you make a decision, and whether it's the wise decision or not, um, I would. I would like to think that, um, I would be.
Lev Cribb:This may be different in eight years time, when my children are similar age, but I would like to think that I would be, uh, excited for them to explore you know the, the, the sort explore, the new chapter in their life and I know that I did at that age and whether it's travelling or whether it's sharing living quarters with somebody or whatever it might be, but I would like to think that I would be happy for them to go off and explore. But I think, at the base of it, I think the instinct will give us a lot of guidance and when raised well, which I'm sure your daughter is. I think that instinct will be very strong as long as she listens to it and follows that, because ultimately you will have instilled that responsibility into her. So I think, if it's one point I think I'd probably go with that At least that's the one that earliest comes or quickest comes to mind.
Professor Derek Heim:Yeah, I like that. I like that, and I might adapt my own approach to tomorrow in light of what you've just said. My answer to the question what advice I should be giving our daughter tomorrow when she leaves home is to you know, first they are supposed to make friends and to enjoy it. And then the other thing, I think, which which I have learned. So our family has been touched by some unfortunate health issues over the years, and one of the things I've learned from that is actually that health, you know, illness, death, that's the only thing you know you can't do anything about. So I think another sort of guiding principle as young people, you know, go out into the big bad world is that you know you can always change things in life and make different choices. You just have to be brave enough to do it. It's not always easy to make changes once you've gone down a particular path, but I think that knowledge that we can do change things is probably something that we'll see her through, hopefully, as she progresses into the next phase of her life.
Lev Cribb:I'm sure it will. I like that answer as well. I think there's probably, as parents, I think we will always have something in our minds. There's probably, you know, as parents, I think we will always have something in our minds where we think, you know, these are the kind of principles we'll set our children off with into the big world. But I guess, when it actually comes down to it, it's perhaps not always as straightforward, as easy or there's too much we want to say. But no, I like your answer, I think it's a good one and I hope it goes well tomorrow and it goes well for her in the next phase. Um, I'm sure she'll have, uh, she'll have a lot of fun and um, and enjoy the next stage of her life as well. So, uh, derek, thank you so much for for for joining me on this episode.
Lev Cribb:It's it's it's it's a big topic and it's a it's not an easy topic. So I appreciate you sharing your insights. I know that we we probably haven't even touched on 2% of the overall subject matter, but it's nice to get an insight and I appreciate you sharing that with us and I hope, if you're listening to this as a listener, that it was helpful for you as well, insightful. We will put into the description as well some links, certainly to UK Smart Recovery and some other links as well, if you've been affected by any of the topics that we spoke about here today, where you can get some additional help as well. But if you liked this episode, if you think it would benefit somebody else, please share it.
Lev Cribb:This information is here for for you know, for us not just to create content, but just to help gain insights into areas that we perhaps don't always always speak about. So share it with others. Subscribe to the podcast. There's other episodes on other topics from other experts, which I'm sure you'll find interesting as well, but for now, thank you very much for listening, thank you very much for watching, like and subscribe. And, derek, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate that.
Professor Derek Heim:Thank, you again, leo, thank you.
Professor Derek Heim:Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did For other interesting topics. Go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search for the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. See you next time.
