How To Sell To Anyone, with Sam McKenna. Virtually Anything Goes Podcast #salestips #samsales #smykm

Multi-Award Winning Sales Consultant Sam McKenna (Founder and CEO of Sam Sales Consulting) joins host Lev Cribb on the Virtually Anything Goes Podcast Expert Series to share her insights and experience of what makes successful Salespeople and Sales Teams.

What if the secret to sales success lies in genuine human connections rather than aggressive tactics? Join us for an engaging conversation with Sam McKenna, CEO and founder of Sam Sales Consulting, as she reveals how she transformed skepticism into a thriving career by focusing on the human element in sales. From breaking records at On24 and LinkedIn to leading an all-women team, Sam's journey is a testament to the power of empathy and authenticity in business.

Discover how the COVID-19 pandemic reshaped sales strategies, pushing the industry towards digital and remote selling. Sam shares invaluable insights on leveraging social media and maintaining sales cycles virtually. Learn about the pitfalls of quantity-over-quality approaches and the controversial practice of double cold calling. Our discussion highlights the importance of personalized outreach and building genuine connections, offering practical advice on modern sales strategies and etiquette.

As we wrap up, prepare to laugh out loud with our light-hearted segment filled with professional and personal embarrassments that everyone can relate to. From mistaken declarations of love to awkward salon mishaps, these stories remind us that even experts have their cringe-worthy moments. Tune in for an episode that blends valuable sales wisdom with a dose of humor, making it a must-listen for anyone in the sales profession.

This episode is part of our Expert Series, where we speak to experts from a variety of different backgrounds, including Sleep & Insomnia, Addiction, Mentoring, Eye Surgery, Sales, and even Magic! So be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes. 

Find and listen the audio-only version of this episode on your favourite podcast platform. 

For more information, content, and podcast episodes go to https://www.webinarexperts.com 

Transcript

Sam McKenna: 0:00

The bar is so low in terms of what people expect in sales that it actually doesn't take that much effort to stand out.

Intro: 0:07

Welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our expert series, and each episode features a new expert from a range of interesting topics. Throughout the series, you'll hear about sleep and insomnia, addiction, mentoring, crisis communication, sales, eye surgery and even magic. You don't want to miss what the experts have to share, so subscribe and follow this podcast now, and then sit back and listen in podcast now and then sit back and listen in.

Lev Cribb: 0:49

Hello and welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast and this particular episode about sales. The episode is about expertise and we are in the expert series. In this series, we'll be covering a whole different variety of topics around sleep and insomnia, mentoring, communications, eye surgery and even magic. Today, I'm joined by Sam McKenna, ceo and founder of Sam Sales Consulting. Sam has worked in sales her entire career, broken 13 records, worked in enterprise software companies such as On24 and LinkedIn.

Lev Cribb: 1:15

Sam has a list of accolades longer than my arm so, reluctantly, I had to cut it down. But Sam was named a top 100 global sales leader, top 25 women in revenue, top 20 women in sales leadership and a top 100 global sales leader, top 25 women in revenue, top 20 women in sales leadership and a top 10 LinkedIn sales star. Sam started Sam Sales Consulting in 2019 and served over 200 clients with her all women team of 15. Sam and her company were featured in the Wall Street Journal, in Fortune Business Insider, and Sam is also an advisor to a variety of software companies. So, sam, very warm welcome. I'm delighted you could join us.

Sam McKenna: 1:49

It's so great to see you, Lev, and thanks for the kind introduction. It makes me flush a little bit, but thanks for the kind words and for having me.

Lev Cribb: 1:57

Yeah, great. No, it's wonderful to have you. I'm really excited, and what I love about you, sam, is that you share a lot of your expertise and insights on your social media channels on LinkedIn and on YouTube as well, and you're clearly very successful and established, and some might say that you are giving all of your trade secrets away. In my mind, that makes you an expert and you know you're confident. In that you can add more expertise to your client relationship. So that's what I thought when I asked you to join me, but I'm just delighted that you're here.

Sam McKenna: 2:25

Thanks, that's true. You know we hear that all the time and people say why do you give everything away for free? You know you can basically build an education by just looking at my LinkedIn content, but I think there are a few people out there that will probably never be able to hire us, never be able to afford us, and why not benefit them? And, at the end of the day, that content also does a great job of marketing our services and branding ourselves. Hence why we're here today. So it works out beautifully and always excited to be of help to somebody else yeah, no, it's great mindset.

Lev Cribb: 2:54

And if this is your first time listening to this podcast, stick around right until the end, when we go over to the virtually anything goes question. For those of you who don't know what that is, that's where I turn control over to Sam, and Sam can ask me any questions she likes, virtually about anything. I don't know what that question is yet. I will know it when you hear it on the podcast as well, and I have to answer it. The only caveat is I then turn the question back to Sam, and Sam has to answer the same question, so stick around for that as well. I think that might be an interesting one. Sam already knew instantly what the question was going to be, and I've waited for weeks to find out what it is, so I'm sure we'll find out in about 40 minutes You're in for a treat.

Sam McKenna: 3:31

Wonderful.

Lev Cribb: 3:31

I can't wait so, sam. We've worked together in a previous life, but why don't you tell us a little bit more about your journey, what's made you passionate about sales in the first place and perhaps why you started Sam Sales Consulting in 2019?

Sam McKenna: 3:45

You know, I think, probably just like a lot of you listening that are in sales I got into sales the exact same way. I fell into it. I fell into it begrudgingly. There's a great quote by this person that I love, corporate Bro. If any of you follow him on social media and he says somewhere along the way you screwed up. He uses a different word and you got into sales. And that's a little bit about how I feel, about how I got into the sales profession.

Sam McKenna: 4:07

But I will say when I got into it I thought much about it, the same thing that a lot of people think of it and the reputation that it has, and that it's calculated and it's slimy and it's terrible and all these things, and it really isn't and it is actually such a fantastic profession. I'm passionate about it because I look at this profession as a chance to solve problems for other people and also love the idea that the amount of work and unique skill set that you bring to the table can actually impact the amount of revenue you make. So it's not like you are a you know coordinator or specialist or manager or whatever and you know another line of work and you get paid basically the same, based on your experience. You can make infinite amounts of money just through your own unique skill set, and it doesn't require a degree, it doesn't require a certification. It's just who you are and what you bring to the table. But I got into it in about 2008. I came in to a very, very small company as an account manager. I was really successful for two years and then got the opportunity to become an account executive for a net new business, which was terrifying. As an account manager, you have an existing account. You can farm them, you can grow them, you can build these relationships.

Sam McKenna: 5:16

And now I was going into a territory where I did not have that and I thought for sure I would lose my job. In fact, I did the opposite, ended up continuing to break records and, you know, kill my quota and all that stuff. Eventually moved companies to On24, where you and I crossed paths, became a leader, an executive leader, broke a bunch of records there and then got recruited to LinkedIn by being really active, not only on LinkedIncom but also as a power user of LinkedIn Sales Navigator, and then broke my 13 sales record while I was at LinkedIn and I just thought you know what? I'm? On a plane every single day. I'm working so hard, countless hours.

Sam McKenna: 5:57

I wonder what I could do on my own. I wonder if I could start my own company and work for two or three clients. Work part-time, make half the money that I made before life would be okay, right, if I did that. And so I launched the business. That lasted about a week, um. I still have a long to-do list that I still haven't done. It's been almost five years, um, and now we've grown quite tremendously. But I think to me I just I always knew that there was something about the way I sold, approached relationships, approached the whole ecosystem of sales marketing, cs, that was different, and because I'd never also been classically trained in sales, I thought this is probably something different that I could teach others to do and be really successful doing it myself.

Sam McKenna: 6:38

I always feel like I'm running a race.

Lev Cribb: 6:42

It clearly worked. Just, I mean, maybe just dig into that a little bit. What was it like during COVID, Because I suspect a lot of things would have turned upside down and you know, you were only just about a year into it then with Sam Sales Consulting. What was that like?

Sam McKenna: 6:57

This was a fascinating thing During COVID. I feel like we really took off beyond my wild expectations in terms of revenue, and I think one of the reasons for that was social selling became something really important, if only temporarily, and I think it will eventually come back again. But you know, people said what do we do now that we can't be in person, right? What are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to sell? How do we engage digitally? And my question was what did you do before? What did you do between conferences and in-person meetings? How did you keep sales cycles running and how did you continue to nurture, like, how did you manage to be successful before COVID and before in-person stuff? And so I think there was a lot of demand for us, just because we knew how to do that.

Sam McKenna: 7:39

I'd always been remote. I'd sold remotely my whole career, I'd worked remotely my whole career and I'd sold remotely my whole career, worked remotely my whole career and so there was great demand for that and I think also because to me, selling digitally is the same as selling in person, right. But we have this great thing now, especially during COVID, that you can see in people's homes. You get to hear their pets, their kids, see their backgrounds, see their books, like you get to connect with them in a way that's brand new and truly authentically human. But that was also a huge learning experience for so many people that we trained.

Lev Cribb: 8:08

Yeah, and I'm sure we'll come to show me. You know me, but I think that's what you're hinting at as well right, with seeing into people's homes and knowing a bit more about them, but we'll come to that, I'm sure. So I mean, this episode is part of the expert series. We here at Webinar Experts, are experts in live digital communications. You're an expert in sales. What I want to find out from these conversations that we're having on these podcast episodes is what makes you different. What is your approach that kind of is different. That makes you so successful. How do you approach things that just differ, perhaps, from others?

Sam McKenna: 8:40

I think you know I will say a couple of, I think one. I was born in Switzerland and with my Swiss roots, you know, I think that the first day that I came out and showed up on the planet, manners were such an important part of my upbringing and I think that I think it always surprises people when I say that what makes us different is, I really think about just modern manners when we engage with people. So I think that's one of it, one part of it. Two I think it goes back to that part that I haven't been classically trained in any of. I haven't been trained in any of the classical sales methodologies spin, selling, challenger, any of that. I've read some of the books, but I think what makes us different is that we just approach things from a human element and we also approach them to solve, not to sell. And I think for me, if we think about who we're meeting with, we do our research in advance, we employ some manners and then we show up and say what's your challenge and how might I be able to help you, instead of saying here's everything we do and here's how we can sell our services to you. It's not about that. To me it never has been. I think that's what's always made me so successful.

Sam McKenna: 9:43

People are on a call with you for a reason. They have a challenge they need to solve. They have things they want to do better. There's some reason why they showed up. So it's our job not to tell them what we do and hope it sticks. It's our job to figure out what their issues are and to help them diagnose something that can help them solve those challenges. It may not be us and it may not be the services we offer, but I'll tell you if I can take that 30 minutes that somebody's given me and I can make good use of it by recommending them to somebody else.

Sam McKenna: 10:10

Odds are one. They're gonna be like oh my god, I trust. For the salesperson, I'll be like I know, can you believe they exist? But two will build a relationship and they'll probably come back to me or refer me as soon as they do have some need or know somebody that needs us. So I think it's a couple of approaches. There I will say the only other thing is and this does tie to show me, you know me, but you really think about the person as a human being, not just somebody with wallet share, and I think that's where we get things wrong often in the sales process. When I say to people what do you know about your clients? Tell me about their kids, tell me about where they live, where they went to school, what they love to do, what they're working for, how long they've even been to their company, tell me what you know. And they say what do you mean? And I say okay, we really have our work cut out for us, but don't forget that your buyers are people too.

Lev Cribb: 10:53

They're human beings with lives yeah, and you mentioned something there that I just want to, I guess, dig into a bit, because your approach is quite different and you're coming up against these perhaps blank faces where they say, well, what do you mean? How does your approach land with the decision makers, in your clients, because I'm assuming they'll reach out to you, or perhaps you reach out to them, but it sounds like it is quite different to the classically trained person, or?

Lev Cribb: 11:18

perhaps a classically trained organization or the classic mindset. How does that land and what does that conversation like?

Sam McKenna: 11:25

I think this is going to sound like such a silly and kind of obvious answer, but the leads that inbound to us, right, the people that come to us for our services.

Sam McKenna: 11:39

They obviously close so much more quickly and predictably because they're already sold on our process, right, they've seen what we talk about.

Sam McKenna: 11:42

They're frustrated by the same things that I direct people not to do on LinkedIn, and so they're already sold.

Sam McKenna: 11:47

That's where we win.

Sam McKenna: 11:48

Where we don't win sometimes, right, we do have individuals that come to us and say well, we don't believe in quality over quantity, right, we believe in scale, we believe in smiling dials, we love cold calls, and that's just not us, right?

Sam McKenna: 12:01

So we know that that person isn't going to be aligned with us, but I think, for us, the right mindset the mindset of I don't know how to sell in this market today, I don't know how to be successful it seems like you do, and I'm counting on you to show us how to do that in a high quality way are the people we align with. Now, we will still go into organizations, right, and train clients, and then they go right back to quality, quantity over quality, um, but those individuals that know that what got us here isn't going to get us here, get us there, and that also know that what worked for us and even 2019 isn't going to work today, in 2024, are the ones that really resonate with us, because it is different. You just have to be already frustrated with what's going on in the market and say we can do better.

Lev Cribb: 12:43

And that looks to be better to me and I mean I, I guess quite often um sales is perhaps looked at as something that's really quite pushy and, you know, impersonal and sort of, like you say, smiling down just volume. Is that a fair, correct characterization of of the profession or do you think actually? No, we're past that. Now it's changing.

Sam McKenna: 13:02

It's different I think it's a fair you know what what stanks is. I think it's a fair characterization of the profession because that is often the experience. Right I say this all the time the bar is so low in terms of what people expect in sales that it actually doesn't take that much effort to stand out. You can do one little thing, do a bit of research, send a thank you note when you a deal, do small things that really impact how a buyer perceives you. But unfortunately, I don't think the profession is that. I think those things that classically, that train you in all the old school ways, really focus again on that quantity over quality. It's a numbers game, they say. So I think, when you think about that, unfortunately, the profession, the reputation we have, is correct. It's not the reputation we should have and I think the reputation we should have is that this again, this is a profession where you have the opportunity to help solve challenges. So I think that's also what helps us be successful is that we are so different than our own competition. You know we read our competition's advice on LinkedIn. Different than our own competition. You know we read our competition's advice on LinkedIn and most of the time I think, ugh, it's so self-centered. Let me give you an example.

Sam McKenna: 14:12

People talk about doing what's called the double cold call, and the double cold call is where, lev, I would call you. You wouldn't answer the phone because you're in a meeting. And then I would call you again and you would think, oh well, maybe it's Max's school. Right, for those of you who don't know a little, show me, you know me. That is Lev's son, who's 11 years old, taking notes really quickly. But so perhaps you would think it's Max's school. So you'd pick up. Or you think it's an emergency and you'd pick up and you would say, oh sorry, I don't have time to talk right now.

Sam McKenna: 14:47

I'm in a meeting and I would say the advice our competitors give us to say either what's the meeting about or to say it can't be that important because you picked up the phone. Oh my god, I would sooner die than say something like that to somebody that picked up the phone. But that's the kind of advice in the competition that's out there. It's about get away to you, get, find a path to your buyer at all costs, push yourself onto them, cold call it, pick the phone. I just could never imagine doing that. So again, I think. I think. Yes, it is a fair description of the profession. I just wish it wasn't that.

Lev Cribb: 15:12

Yeah, yeah, you're making inroads to changing that, so I'm pleased to see that. But obviously you've been clearly very successful with the approach and you share, as I mentioned, a lot on on YouTube and on LinkedIn and you know there's always really helpful tips and hashtags to follow, and you talk about your methodologies as well that you use and you you employ and and that you know your clients clearly benefit from. If you could and just talking about what we talked about just now if there was one thing that you could sort of permanently, forever and a day, remove from the salesperson's repertoire forever, what would that be? What would go into room 101, as we say in the UK?

Sam McKenna: 15:54

Oh my gosh, how much time do you have to talk about this? I think one thing I would do I realize that it's still important in certain professions, in certain in in certain ways, that we sell some consumer goods and things like that. This is so important. But if I could get rid of cold calling, I would get rid of cold calling If I could get rid of salesy language. Right, hope this finds you doing well, I would get rid of that right away.

Sam McKenna: 16:18

Again, not to reference him the second time, but if you don't follow Corporate Bro, he has a great video on hope this finds you're doing well. That makes me cry, laughing no matter how many times I've seen it. But I think anything that's robotic and that is really just geared towards the selfish need of the seller. If we can get rid of those things and instead of we can just change our lens to think about the buyer, the challenges that they have and how we can help them, that's what I would say. But probably first and foremost would be cold calls, send cold calls to the graveyard.

Sam McKenna: 16:50

Okay, good Do you like being cold called? Do you get cold calls left? I know right.

Lev Cribb: 16:55

Yeah, I don't, and you know it's. I mean, we all do it right, we all screen our calls and you know we start seeing the repetitive ones and you think, no, I'm definitely going to you either block it or don't answer it. And sometimes we play games with the callers to just ask them questions. When they say I know so much about your company, okay, what do you know about me then? And they don't. It's sort of that smoke screen that kind of gets pushed up and then actually when you call them out upon it, then it's not there. But as you always say, if you do know much about them, actually that resonates and you open the email and you think, okay, well, these guys clearly did their research and they know stuff about me, and that makes it much more likely that I will then actually engage in the conversation. But I'm still waiting for that to happen. It just doesn't happen that often.

Sam McKenna: 17:46

Let me ask you a question. I realized you were interviewing me here, but let me ask you why don't you like being cold call?

Lev Cribb: 17:58

What is it that bothers you about that from your, your perspective? I don't mind the cold call itself, as long as it's relevant and something I need. So we are in a quite a, you know, a reasonably niche part of the industry. You know, and I know we, we do certain things in certain ways and it's it's just very, very obvious when either cold call or cold email comes and says we work with lots of companies like you and I think we're certainly unique, but I doubt that and somebody is telling me that they can increase our revenue by or find 500 new leads in six months. I know that's not the case. So I instantly check out and if it's more relevant and somebody came look, I'll get you two new leads in the next six months. Okay, well, probably more likely to listen to that than 500 new leads, because it's probably more relevant and more realistic. So it's the relevance and the realism with which people kind of claim they can help.

Sam McKenna: 18:45

Well and I think you think about this too right there's great data that supports why you don't want to do cold calls, and it says it takes 11 touches to even get 11 to pick up the phone, right, and then if you say you'll take a meeting and you agree to that, we have a 37% show rate on average.

Sam McKenna: 19:01

It's a lot of work for a very little return, right, and I think also it's just, it's so pushy.

Sam McKenna: 19:06

So, from my perspective again, thinking about the buyer, thinking about how to earn the right to that meeting, if we just put in a little bit of work, a little bit of personalization, a little bit of homework and instead of maybe go to the senior manager, the director that we're targeting, go to the CRO, go to the CMO, go to the head of that department.

Sam McKenna: 19:25

Instead, make the effort, do your research on them, get them to say, wow, somebody that actually made an effort for once. I'm going to open your email, I'm going to respond to your email, even if I don't need you and even if we don't think we need you right now, I'm going to let you earn the right to the meeting with somebody else on my team just because you took the time to actually do something that nobody else does. That's where I think we win, and I think to me it's about efficiency, right, but it's also about creating a great brand. That seller and your company now has a significantly better brand because they're different. They're not playing the volume game. They're just focusing on sending maybe 30 or 40 net new emails a week, which probably just tear through a lot of sales leaders' bones.

Lev Cribb: 20:07

But if you do that, and let's say we get 20% of those people to respond and take a meeting, that's a whole hell of a lot of meetings for very little effort, and probably at a more senior level too. I mean, we mentioned, show me, you know me, but explain a little bit how you approach that. And also, based on what you just said, when does it get a bit too creepy?

Sam McKenna: 20:29

When does it get a bit too. I know everything about you. I think to me. Show me, you know me. You think about this in a couple of different ways. So we show the person that we know them as a human being, we know a little bit about them as an employee. And if we can't find anything, if their LinkedIn profile has a tumbleweed going by and it hasn't been updated since late 2010, go on the website and see what you can understand about the company, right? What's happening in the press? What are the recent releases? Has the person been featured on a podcast and have they written an article recently? Is there a quote? What can we find out about them?

Sam McKenna: 21:01

Right, and I think what's interesting to me about this is that when you do your research, you tend to find things on people and we'll talk about how to not be creepy in a second but you tend to find things that'll help you write the subject line. That makes absolutely no sense. So we'll give you an example, one that I wrote to the CRO of a recently acquired company. It was recently acquired by Vista Equity Partners for just over $2 billion. I wrote the CRO and I said my subject line was Toby is Australian plus deep dive on pipeline plus hashtag Sam sales Makes absolutely no sense except to that CRO. I got a response in a meeting in 19 minutes, did the same thing with the head of social media for one of the divisions at Nike and I think it was amazing leopard shorts plus soul cycle plus hashtag Sam sales. It's no sense except to the person reading it. Now how do we not get too creepy? So to me, I think anything that is professionally shared is on limits. So if it's shared on their LinkedIn profile, in their posts and their about section, if they posted something you know about the soul cycle classes, they take any of that totally on limits. Right. If you can find it in a professional article, totally appropriate. I think where you want to avoid is any personal social media, unless there's some tic tac star and then have at it. But other than that, avoid personal social media, avoid. You know we had something a while back where somebody referenced a Yelp review from I think was 2007 or 9, something like that and you're like it's really digging super deep. We can find something better. But stick to the professionally based stuff, right, Even if you can't find anything else. Right, like on their again, on their profiles, articles, etc. Think about what's going on with the company and how you can help them.

Sam McKenna: 22:48

We helped a social listening company in the UK who could not find a path to get into a bank. Right, there was a bank that they wanted to do business with and I said, well, how do we get in? They said their executives aren't on LinkedIn. What do we do? And so I said, well, what's happening on their website? Let's go look.

Sam McKenna: 23:04

And there was a press release that this was, I think, about two years ago, but a press release that said that they want to double their revenue by 2027. I think it was. The bank wants to double their revenue in three or four years. How are they going to do that? What's their path to that and how can you, as a social listing platform, play a role in that? It's not that hard, right? So when you say I know this is a goal I saw on your in your press releases, I see it all over the place about this. I'd be curious to think about how social listing plays a part in that, and here's specifically how we can help you. Interested in learning more? That's it. Just show that you can make a dent in their goals.

Lev Cribb: 23:38

Yeah Well, you can't leave us hanging though. Who's Toby, and why is he Australian?

Sam McKenna: 23:43

Toby Carrington is the chief business development officer at Seismic and one of the things that Toby Toby is a big fan of. Show me, you know me and he talks about all the time that people see that he's from Australia on their LinkedIn profile and he's like I see her from Australia, do you want to buy our stuff? And he says no. So it's the. That was being exchanged back and forth in the comments with the CRO of this company and he, the CRO, and Toby were going back and forth and saying I can't believe people use that. So I threw that in and then in my email I just brought my personality and I said hopefully you know that my subject line is a little facetious about Toby being Australian, but you know we hear this all the time, etc. And then I tied the deep dives into pipelines.

Sam McKenna: 24:26

This gentleman had posted on LinkedIn saying I'm preparing for a board meeting. If you want my attention, here's how to get my attention. Reference these things, help me figure out a path to this. And so that's exactly what we did. It's not that hard and I will also tell you. Look in some of the profiles of people. There's a gentleman. I don't think you guys cross paths, but his name is Josh Atkins and he worked at On24 as well on my team, and he is now a GM at a company called Qualtrics which probably has about 2000 sellers or so. If you look at Josh's profile and his about section, it literally says at the bottom if you are an SDR that is trying to get a meeting with me, here's how you do that. Reference Shakespeare, reference this, reference that and I'll respond to your email. Do people do it? Absolutely not. It's not hard.

Lev Cribb: 25:10

I love that. I love the little breadcrumbs that you can leave, just to see how do people actually get to you. It reminds me actually of you. Remember Nick DeVille from On 24.

Lev Cribb: 25:21

Times as well, we often talked about. You know, you sign up for something, you get spam emails and you wonder where they all come from. And he started we spoke about this. He started creating individual email addresses on his personal email domain for things he signed up for. So you know, whatever his newsletter, x, y, z and then add his own domain and he used only that to sign up for that particular newsletter and if he would start getting emails to that, that was spam, he knew that's where they were coming from.

Lev Cribb: 25:53

That's so smart, yeah, and that way you can instantly wheel out anybody who you think that's not adding value. They're just spamming me. But that reminds me of the kind of breadcrumbs you leave something on your LinkedIn profile where you'd expect people to go if they want to talk to you and find out more about you and if they haven't spotted that then they haven't done their work right.

Sam McKenna: 26:14

so it's yeah, yes, that's cool, and I think there's something, and I think you're probably the same way but there's something about um, my upbringing too, in terms of how to make conversation right and how to actually pull something out about somebody and then authentically connect with it, tell a story, etc. And that's what show me, you know me is so saying I see your, I see you were born in australia cool, want to buy my stuff. Doesn't really cut it right. So what about Australia, right? Or somebody says Sam, I see you went to Florida State University, go Knolls, want to buy my stuff? No, what about FSU?

Sam McKenna: 26:42

And I think that that's where sales also gets a bad reputation. It's the idea of personalization at scale. They're not actually making the effort. They're just using ai to scan for information, pull it in and then go from there. Actually, my favorite email that I ever got using that um sent me a note about an event that they wanted to invite me to, and then they said that um, by the way, you might be interested in this relevant piece of news about I was like years ago, but it was like israeli air fighters were shot down in a training incident or something like that, and I'm like why in the hell would this show up in my email? And I realized that it's because the AI saw that we're a training company and picked up on something that was related to training in the news Israel. I don't know why, but it was hysterical. So just put the effort in, use your brain. That's what's going to cut through the noise these days.

Lev Cribb: 27:37

So we spoke about what you want to send to the graveyard, but what aspects are there that you often get asked about that people struggle with in sales that are worth keeping alive? What do you come across most? That, where people really want to make a difference, just seem to not be able to.

Sam McKenna: 27:51

I think one is really just the idea of how to sell in today's market and how to make a difference to their clients. I think everybody is really struggling with how do we sell in a modern way, how do we employ social media, how do we cut through the noise of inboxes and things like that. And I think the other thing is like one of the things we're often asked is like our tricks and our hacks and the things that we do really well, we, we get a reputation for in a good way, um, for thinking in the things that nobody else thinks of. So I'll give you like an example. Right, they show me, you know me is behind me on a frame, but the other thing that's behind me outside of this friend little pineapple, um is the urgent bird gets the worm. I think that's one thing that that has been a mainstay of what we teach sales reps is how important urgency is right, and I think that right now, buyers have to follow up, chase proposals, look for things they have to say. You know, I filled out a form seven days ago on your site and I haven't heard back from anybody. There's such an opportunity for us to be urgent and to be quick and to be responsive and to follow through in a timely manner in a way that I just think really lacks in most sellers capacity. I think the other thing is just the effort. So if I could say you know what should stay, one of those things would be just manners.

Sam McKenna: 29:07

One of the things we're known for I briefly referenced earlier but is sending a thank you note after you lose the deal. The first time I actually did this it was with a gentleman named Chad, actually in Washington, and I'm 24. I don't know if you remember him, but he was on my team. He lost a deal and I said I want you to send this person a thank you note and it was like what do I have to be thankful for? I lost the deal. And I was like, oh my God. And I was like well, you got the at-bat, you got the opportunity to pitch, you got time, you got to see their process, they heard you out, you're part of the game and that's what you have to say, the thank you note for. And what's amazing to me is when you do that, the buyer is going to reflect and say I just got a thank you note from the person that lost the deal.

Sam McKenna: 29:48

I sure as hell didn't get one from the person that won our deal right. And then not everything always works out. People change shops, people are dissatisfied with the vendors they choose. Who are they gonna call when they want to replace that person? It's going to be you, so think about how often that can happen. And that's precisely what happened. Six weeks later, that person left their job and then we got a deal in like no time when she landed at her new place. But think of these things. They they take effort right and they take time to carve out in your day, but you'll win hearts and minds doing things like that. Over 100 cold calls a day.

Lev Cribb: 30:22

Smart, yeah, and it seems so obvious when you put it like that. But not many people do it, I guess, and I suppose the successful ones do. But no, it's great to kind it's. It's great, it's great to kind of get that angle from you because it's, it is obvious.

Sam McKenna: 30:39

But, as I say, it's not often done Well, and even even think about modern manners like in in when you send out an email. Right, we'd hear from executives all the time and I don't know if this happens to you, but we hear from executives all the time that they will take the time to respond to somebody's email and say thanks for your note. You know, we just don't have a need for you right now, but, you know, appreciate the effort or whatever. And then I say, well, that's great. What's the reply that you get back from the rep? And they say absolutely nothing, the, the, the. The quickness that we, you know, speed up.

Sam McKenna: 31:07

To say you don't matter because now you're not giving me anything that I want, so I'm not going to waste any more time on you is is wild to me. So when somebody responds and they do you the courtesy of responding to your cold outbound, just respond back. Thank you so much. I'd love to stay in touch. I'm going to connect with you on LinkedIn. I appreciate you just taking the time to reply to me. Just think about how you can set yourself apart with that one small thing. People remember it and if they don't, when they research your name again in their email next time they're going to be like that's right.

Lev Cribb: 31:36

that's the person that actually said thanks when nobody else did a lot of what you mentioned so far is is about, I guess, the fundamentals and the basics, but universally applicable manners, and, you know, yeah, yeah, your approach with kindness and whatever else it is. It does make me wonder is all sales the same across all industries? Does it all apply the same way, or are there industries where perhaps it's a little different, or there's, I don't know, compliance requirements or certain things? Or is it individual approaches that may vary, or does it actually apply these core principles that you've got there?

Sam McKenna: 32:14

You know it's a good question, I think. On first flush I would say I think 70 to 80 percent of the process for sales across industries is the exact same and it really comes down again giving a darn about the person that you're selling, making connections using referrals, being smart about the way that you approach your conversations. I think that's all pretty much the same. I think there are some where the vernacular changes and it's really important to be an expert in that space, like I have always been, somebody that's sold to law firms my entire life and selling to that law firm and professional services space is very different than selling to tech or semiconductors or whatever.

Sam McKenna: 32:52

I also think that there's so much about sales that isn't art. Right To me, there's maybe 10 things that are black and white that we don't do or we do in sales right, be on time, don't insult the buyer Things like that that are pretty standard. But other than that, I think it really comes down to personal style and your own heart and soul. But I think it's pretty much the same across all industries, whether you're selling B2B or B2C. I think most of the principles are mainstays.

Lev Cribb: 33:22

Yeah, I mean, I can see why. Because they are fundamentals. The things that you talk about are fundamentals and they resonate on a personal level. So I completely see that on a personal level. So I completely see that Is. So I want to say, take a slight tangent, because is sales and the things we talk about here, is that only relevant to salespeople, or can it be applied to other areas, not necessarily even within business? Have you observed? Actually, the principles I consider you know within my daily work can be applied to personal life as well.

Sam McKenna: 33:55

Yeah, I think I think this, oh my gosh, your personal life especially. I think, a couple of things you know we talked about. Show me you know me and how many different places it has um in in the, the, just the corporate world. But I think about show me, you know me, everything that we talk about, how it applies to sales. It applies to your leadership principles as well. So what do you know about your people as human beings, right? The people they report to, or the people that report to? The people they report to, um, what do you know about them? What do you know about their aspirations? What are they working for? What motivates them, gets them out of bed every single day? How do we, how do we think about that?

Sam McKenna: 34:29

Um, one of the biggest things we talk about in sales these days is the idea of active listening, and I will say, if you're 35 years of age and under today, active listening probably isn't something that's part of your communication style, and neither is asking questions, right? So you think about this. Our kind of younger generations tend to exchange information by talking at each other. So, instead of my saying how was your weekend, how was your week, how was your night last night I say this is what I did last night, this is what I did this weekend, and then you tell me what you did this weekend. So we exchange by telling each other about ourselves. But active listening is so important, right? And you think about that? The act of asking a question, hearing the answer and then asking another question based on that answer so few people are really good at that. There's a great radio station does that still sound modern? Here in the States, called National Public Radio, npr. It's really nerdy and it has news and all sorts of great podcasts. But they did a study and found that people who are question askers are super well liked. But people who are active listening, question askers who ask those questions on top of the answers they get, are exponentially more well liked. So think about what that can do for your personal life, as well as your sales, your leadership, your cross functional life.

Sam McKenna: 35:47

I will say I think that's also something that we miss, even just as employees, right? I I remember it's actually at on 24 our, our general counsel was a gentleman by the name of Bill, if you happen to remember him, love, and I remember we had a conversation when I got promoted to VP and he said you know, I said I here, we need to work on our relationship. My boss Ben said I need to work on my relationship with Bill. And I went to Bill and I said we need to work on a relationship. My boss Ben said I needed to work on my relationship with Bill. And I went to Bill and I said we need to work on a relationship. And Bill said we can't work on a relationship. And he just kept saying that over and over again. I thought I was going to go mad and I'm like. I finally realized do you mean that we can't work on a relationship because we don't have a relationship yet? And he's like I'm like oh my gosh, why didn't you just say so? But it made me realize.

Sam McKenna: 36:35

Especially as a salesperson and as a leader with cross, certain cross-functional partners, I saw them as workhorses for us. Right, we have a deal to get done. I need you to review our red lines and move on with our lives. As somebody who is so dedicated to investing in other people and showing them that I know them, it was a light bulb moment for me to realize that there were some people that I didn't treat with that same respect and curiosity and interest that I had with others. So I think that show me you know me, that active listening, that just caring about people as a human can go so much farther than just everything you're doing from a sales process but just who you are as a person, employee and friend.

Lev Cribb: 37:18

I mean, on top of everything that you said, was this moment with Bill. Was that the moment where you realized that about yourself? I mean, you've been always successful, you know and you've done very well. Was that already part of your repertoire? You just didn't apply to Bill? Or was that a moment where you learned that from him?

Sam McKenna: 37:32

No, it was, and I think that's what the most surprising part to me was that that's already who.

Sam McKenna: 37:38

I was right, I'm genuinely interested people um, my friend warns other people before they meet me to say sam is a firing range of questions.

Sam McKenna: 37:44

I am genuinely curious and interested in other people, but I think what I just didn't realize is that these this kind of at the I hate sports analogies but you're at the finish line, you know, you're at the one yard line I don't know what a good one would be for for soccer or football, but you'll tell me, but you're at that, you're, you're right outside the goal.

Sam McKenna: 38:05

And that person was basically what stood in my way of getting my deal done. So to me it wasn't about like we're not here to exchange nice cities, I don't care about your weekend, I care about you approving my red lines and letting me move on. And it surprised me because I just didn't occur to me before that there were certain people that were so instrumental in getting my work done that I actually didn't treat with the same kindness and again interest that I did with other people in my life. So it was a great light bulb moment. I already did all of those thoughtful gestures. It was part of my brand, but I didn't do them with certain people, and man was that important.

Lev Cribb: 38:41

I mean I guess we see it in TV programs all the time Certain, you know, whether it's the office or whatever else people who are undervalued you know somewhere in the basement and they're instrumental to certain things, and it ultimately comes down to common human decency, I guess, to recognize them as well and involve them and treat them just in the same way as you would anybody else who might be sitting in the upper floor. But I mean, maybe we should rename sales into relationship building, with a common, mutually beneficial outcome. Not quite as Not quite as zingy no, not quite, we'll create an acronym for it.

Lev Cribb: 39:16

Yeah, now you talk a lot of sense and it all sounds very obvious, as I said before, and everything you say just sort of kicks off other questions, for me as well. We could talk on for hours, but I know we have a time limit, so I'll move us along a little bit. But one thing I saw on one of your videos is where you talk about value, and what role does creating or adding value, what role does that play in building a relationship and in, ultimately, the sales process?

Sam McKenna: 39:48

I think this is a good example to talk about this today. So we just spoke with a massive financial organization today. We'd done business with them in the past and then we said we'd love to do business with you again. We would love for you to give us more money Tactfully said, of course. And they came back to us and said we're not entertaining working with different vendors for until the end of the year. What we're really focused on right now is evaluating our tech stack, making sure that we're getting the most out of it, you know, deciding what we kind of want to do there. But perhaps we could touch base at the end of the year about how we could work together.

Sam McKenna: 40:21

What do 97% of sales reps do when they get an email like that? They say understood, got it Worse. They say what will change at the end of the year that will make it a better conversation for us? They'll challenge the person when they already have said back off, right, we can talk later. Or they'll say sounds good, I'll set a calendar reminder for September and I'll call you then.

Sam McKenna: 40:44

Instead, I think thinking about how we can create value, right, how we can add value. This is a massive organization that could probably represent I don't know a few hundred thousand dollars for us. So instead our reply is totally understood. No problem at all. Happy to be of help whenever we can be. In the meantime, clients hire us to consult on their tech stack all the time how they're going to consolidate, how how they're gonna get adoption out of it, which ones they really need and which ones they can take away. Would it be helpful if we joined, we grabbed a 30 or 45 minute call and we gave you some advice? Do you wanna run a few things by us? I mean, this is our expertise. We know this inside and out. Can we be of value to you? Couple of grand that we were charged for, we'll do it for you totally for free. So perhaps it'll be a value and we have absolutely nothing to gain at the moment. And I think there's something again quality over quantity, making the effort, thinking about how to invest and help our clients solve challenge is what we're all about. I think the other thing is during the sales process. Let's say, that person wrote back and said we can't wait to talk to you about XYZ.

Sam McKenna: 41:47

We often make the mistake that our buyers understand our value in the exact same way we do, and they just don't. Even if they're marketers, even if they're experts in what we're, who we're selling to and what they do every day, nobody knows our benefits quite the way we do. Let me give you an example Going back to our on 24 days. So, for those of you who don't know, it's a very, very sexy webinar platform and has little widgets that look like apps at the bottom, and so one of the things that we talked about creating value for our buyers is we said hey, one of the cool things you can do with our application is a survey at the end of your webinar. Now, if you are anyone that's ever attended a webinar or hosted a webinar, you think big whoop, because nobody answers the survey. Right, we get nobody to actually give a survey responses. So we don't care that you can do that, because we can do that on our own platform, to which I would say we can do a survey for you. Right, I take it. You survey people now, right, we do, and you probably don't get responses right, correct, so who cares?

Sam McKenna: 42:47

The reason this is important to know is because the timing of the survey is critical and we're the only platform that can do the survey between the presentation and the Q&A. So if you do the survey while you are still holding on to people and they're waiting for the Q&A to happen, you're going to get exponentially higher results. We're creating value in all of these little things. Right about the platform that they think oh, I never thought of that, I didn't realize it was a timing we would kill to get survey responses. You're telling me that one of the many benefits we get by switching to your platform, this is basically an ad for On24.

Sam McKenna: 43:18

I hope they're going to pay us for this love. But you're telling me, by switching to On24, that I can get survey results, amongst 100 other things. Yeah, you want to keep talking about everything else you can talk about or that we can do for you. Let's do that. It's about creating value. It's about telling stories, about showing them the path to why you matter and why your platform matters as a benefit to them. It's not what you do, it's the challenge you solve and that's our job to paint that value through examples, through stories, through data, whatever we've got.

Lev Cribb: 43:45

I would imagine and I hope that's not the case, but I would imagine there'll be folks listening to what you just said and they'll say I tried that, I offered them the 30, 45 minutes to sit down and the value in that, and they just said no. I mean, I'm hoping that nobody has experienced that, but I suspect they do. What can you do in that case when they say no?

Sam McKenna: 44:07

Or have you just approached it.

Sam McKenna: 44:09

Yeah, and I think this is also where the sales is an art.

Sam McKenna: 44:12

We also have to read the room. So are they saying no? Because what's the way they're saying no? If they come back and they say we're good thanks, that might tell us, right, that they're probably not interested in our expertise, right? Or say it's so nice of you to offer. We actually just about finished this.

Sam McKenna: 44:30

I would have loved to have this offer six months ago. Where were you then? Right, we have to read the room in terms of what they say. But sometimes they're going to say we're good thanks, right, don't call us, we'll call you, and we have to read the room in that regard. Um, but I think, even if they say no right, depending on, depending on how they say no still an opportunity to nurture them and add value. So we have to think about this. We're not at the forefront of our buyers minds. Like, think about you and how you think of your prospects. You don't think about the same prospects every single day, right? You have to work hard to remember who they are, think about following up with them, et cetera. So if they're not top of mind for us, we sure as hell are not top of mind for them.

Sam McKenna: 45:08

So part of our job I actually just wrote about this on LinkedIn yesterday, in fact is the idea of nurturing right, how do you continue to add value and educate along the way those nurture emails, right? That person comes back to me and says no thanks on that and I say no worries at all. You know, if I ever can be of help, give me a post. Otherwise, I look forward to staying in touch or getting back in touch in September, but it's April, so I've got a couple of months between now and September and that probably gives me I don't know four chances to nurture them along the way. And that nurture email is simply Lev, I thought of you with what you're undertaking at work right now. You thought this article would be really helpful. Here's one thing I loved about it and how I think about it. Here's the link. Take care.

Sam McKenna: 45:52

So I'm doing a couple of things, right. I'm telling you why I thought of sending you this link and how it's relevant to what you shared with me. I'm giving you something in there and then tying my own thoughts to it so that you hopefully read that and say I totally agree with her. Then I'm giving the link and I'm asking for nothing at all. So the nurture email is for me to educate you. It's for me to remind you I exist, that I would really love to talk to you, but I never have to ask you for that right.

Sam McKenna: 46:16

It's my job to nurture you. And how? Hopefully, have you say this made sense? I think it's time for us to chat again and I'll say thank God, but think about how you can do that in active sales cycles, even if you have something that is on the brink of being signed or you've got a proposal out there, etc. Nurture add value. That's what's going to set you apart, because nobody else is. All they're doing is hitting refresh on their email box and waiting for the contract to come in yeah, no, there's a lot in that.

Lev Cribb: 46:44

it just made me think of, because often we we think about the nurturing being before the close, so talk to me about what is more important? Is it kind of what you do, the approach that you take to selling, and what you do before the close, or is what you do after the close more important if we look at the long term?

Sam McKenna: 47:05

I guess it's what your goal is right. So for me it would probably be before the close, because all I'm trying to do is get a sign. But I will say, I think another way that you can set yourself apart is what you do after that close. And I think a lot of reps depending on how an organization is structured typically a rep will sign a deal and then that'll move on to an account manager and a customer success manager, a CSM, right, and that AE, that new business AE, let's say, is taken out of the mix. Or perhaps an account manager closes that you know division. There's no other work to do there, and so what most reps do is they move on.

Sam McKenna: 47:37

But I would say one thing you can do to be different is set a reminder for yourself at 30, 60, and 120 days, or 30, 90, and 120 days, and after that person sign, go back and say Lev, how's it going with our team? Right, are we giving you everything that we promised? Is onboarding going well? Have you got an adoption like you'd hoped? Is there anything I can escalate for you? Can I be of help Now?

Sam McKenna: 47:58

I'm also going to be a really good partner internally to my team and I'm going to go to that AM and that CSM.

Sam McKenna: 48:03

First I'm going to say how's it going, because I'm about to reach out to Lev to see how it's going. I want to make sure I don't walk into a hornet's nest and if they say it's not going so well, or we could really use this, or he's promised to get us this that we need to get going and he hasn't that's an awesome way that I can be a partner but also show out and I'll tell you. Clients will come back and say it's really huge, right that you just care enough about me. What a way to play the long game. And guess what? They're going to change jobs. Executives stay in jobs so few years. These days, I think VP of sales is still average tenure about 17 months, so you can just make a career out of selling to the same vp of sales over and over again if you want yeah, look, I could talk about this stuff with you for ages because it's it's so interesting and and and so simple.

Lev Cribb: 48:56

But, um, yeah, we, we talked about it doesn't seem to be get, you know, be done enough. But we have to come to the virtually anything goes question. I've dragged this out long enough. I've been sort of dreading this slightly. So, for our listeners again, if you haven't seen the Virtually Anything Goes podcast before, the Virtually Anything Goes question is where I turn it over to. Sam can ask me any questions she likes on any topic she wants, and I have to answer it. The only caveat is she has to answer it afterwards, after I've given my response as well. So, sam, control is entirely with you. Now Go ahead.

Sam McKenna: 49:30

Now, lev, if you need some time to think about this, I can give you my answer first, but I'm going to ask you for your top five, one of your top five most embarrassing moments of your life. Now, I can't give you my first most embarrassing moment, because it is not safe for work, but I can give you my second most embarrassing moment, but I would love to hear about one of yours, if you know them offhand and if not, I can share mine first.

Lev Cribb: 49:52

No, I do, I do. Let's hear it. Yeah, there is one that isn't safe for this podcast either, but there's another one.

Sam McKenna: 50:00

We'll exchange those at a pub sometime.

Lev Cribb: 50:04

Might not be safe for that either. No, so this happened when I was at Antony4, when we were both there, and I sorry I normally don't come up so quickly with the answer to these questions, but this one stands out. It's so embarrassing and everybody here knows it as well. I've told it before, but anyway. So I was talking, I was in sales at the time as well and I was just completed a great demo, even if I say so myself, for a potential new customer, big company, big consulting firm, and the gentleman on the other line was, I think, suitably impressed and very responsive, asked loads of questions, seemed to like what we were doing, and we got to the end of the call and I was so close, so close of you know, having a great call, and what I meant to say at the end of the call was lovely, thank you. And what came out was love you. And all I heard on the other side on the phone was just a snortle of you know.

Sam McKenna: 51:08

I don't know what it was, but and then he hung up and I was like, oh my word, no, this is a pro move. You definitely closed the deal.

Lev Cribb: 51:12

There's no way well, I mean what happened in the immediate aftermath? Everybody in the office popped their heads up from behind their screens. Did he just say love you? Who was he on? Did he just say love you? He just did a demo. Why did he say love you so? Um, highly embarrassing. I thought okay, well, look, I've got to rescue this. I'm going to email this gentleman back and just explain. You know exactly what I just said. I meant to say lovely, thank you, love you came out really inappropriate, so sorry, perhaps we could have another call and silence. And you know, I tried again, leaving a voicemail really grovelly voicemail, just really apologizing and saying sorry. No, I've never heard from this gentleman again oh, come on.

Sam McKenna: 51:51

There's no way this person was that offended.

Lev Cribb: 51:53

Oh my goodness yeah, well, maybe he didn't like the demo as much as I thought he did, but um, that was, yeah, highly embarrassing, and I mean 20 years I can imagine harish, harish, that they're standing up in his three-piece suit and saying did you just say love you in the office and asking you inquisitively.

Sam McKenna: 52:11

That's hysterical. We've all been there.

Lev Cribb: 52:14

Well, since then I've changed my wording. I don't use lovely anymore in courts just because of that reason.

Sam McKenna: 52:21

It's too easy to trip up.

Lev Cribb: 52:22

Yes.

Sam McKenna: 52:33

Mine is not a work one, but it was. It was at a nail salon getting my nails done, and I am a big fan. Good, show me. You know me, tidbit. I'm a big fan of Seinfeld and I still watch all the shows on reruns. And when I'm getting my nails done, I can't read my book, I can't look at anything. So I always bring my little iPod with me and I watch. I watch seinfeld, read runs or whatever show I'm binging. And I happen to be watching a show at the time, an episode that was the.

Sam McKenna: 52:51

It's the chinese restaurant one. Um, if you're familiar with it, it's when they're waiting and waiting and waiting to be called in and they it seems like everybody gets seated over them. And at some point, um, cherry offers elaine fifty dollars if she will go in the restaurant, pick up an egg, roll off somebody's table, eat it and then walk away without saying anything. She looks at George and she says should I do it? And he says for 50 bucks.

Sam McKenna: 53:16

I put my face in somebody's soup and I'd blow, and to me that is just one of the funniest things I've ever heard. And while I'm at the nail salon, I have my hands in paraffin wax, so I can't use them right. They're gone, they're in these bags and I'm listening to the show and I also happen to have a cold, and so I laugh, try to keep it in. I go and just this enormous rupture comes out of my nose. It is literally hanging like a yo-yo. The nail tech is just horrified. Everyone's looking at me, I can't do anything. One of my top, most embarrassing moments I'm assuming you had earphones on, so nobody knew what was actually going on.

Sam McKenna: 53:52

Oh, my AirPods. Yeah, I mean literally. You think of this, you've got the AirPods on, you just hear and then you see this eruption and you've got hands. I mean a disaster. So a good time. It always gives somebody a good time and always give somebody a good laugh excellent.

Lev Cribb: 54:05

How long ago was this? Have you been back there since?

Sam McKenna: 54:08

I, I've never been back and thankfully the nail salon is closed. So, um, it's been probably about five years it was definitely before, before the pandemic, but, um, but a good time nonetheless maybe telling telling a prospective customer that you love them um it's not as bad looking at you, you're in good shape yeah oh, fantastic.

Lev Cribb: 54:28

Well, I mean thank you for honestly, thank you for sharing that voluntarily. I didn't even ask you about that so my pleasure yeah, it looks um. This has been great. I really I really enjoyed this conversation, um, and I really appreciate your time in sharing your insights with us, um, and it's always great to talk to you, so thank you very much great to see, to see you.

Sam McKenna: 54:46

Thanks, you guys, for having me so lovely to be here, that's brilliant, and thank you, of course, to our audience as well.

Lev Cribb: 54:50

Thank you for listening. If you aren't yet subscribed to this podcast now, there's never been a better time. Subscribe now. Like it, follow it. We are on YouTube and, of course, audio versions on your favorite podcast platform as well. That's what I meant to say. So subscribe, follow us. There's plenty more content coming. I think, hopefully, you'll find that interesting as well. Check out the previous episodes. In the meantime, thank you for listening and take care.

Intro: 55:15

Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did For other interesting topics. Go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search for the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. See you next time.