How To Communicate In A Crisis. With Expert Sam Hall - Virtually Anything Goes Podcast

Communications Expert Sam Hall (Senior Director, Corporate, Brand, and Employee Communications at Samsara Inc.) joins host Lev Cribb on the Virtually Anything Goes Podcast Expert Series to talk about Corporate and Crisis Communications.

In this episode, Sam Hall and Lev Cribb dive into a range of aspects of what makes a good communicator, how to communicate with a diverse range of people, how to communicate in a crisis, and how to find common ground when everyone has a different opinion on the best way forward.

Sam Hall has a long and successful career working for some of the world’s most recognisable brands. Throughout his career, his expertise and communication skills have served to build internal and external communications capabilities for many different situations, companies, and industry leaders.

This episode is part of our Expert Series, where we speak to experts from a variety of different backgrounds, including Sleep & Insomnia, Addiction, Mentoring, Eye Surgery, Sales, and even Magic! So be sure to subscribe and check out our other episodes. 

Find and listen the audio-only version of this episode on your favourite podcast platform. 

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Transcript

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

00:00

four o'clock on a Friday afternoon. You know it's time to kind of wrap things up for the week. Let's get all the admin done and enjoy the weekend. And there would be something that would happen. And you know full well that your Friday's just gone and possibly your weekend, and in a slightly perverse way it's kind of nice to be needed. 

IntroductionHost

00:20

Welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our expert series, and each episode features a new expert from a range of interesting topics. Throughout the series, you'll hear about sleep and insomnia, addiction, mentoring, crisis communication, sales, eye surgery and even magic. You don't want to miss what the experts have to share, so subscribe and follow this podcast now, and then sit back and listen in. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

00:59

Hello and welcome to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. This episode is part of our expert series, where we will be featuring experts from a variety of different backgrounds and walks of life. We will be hearing from guests who are experts in sleep and insomnia, corporate communications. We're here today with Sam. You'll see Sam in a moment mentoring, sales and even magic. So there'll be plenty of other topics. Join in for those other episodes as well, but for now we've got Sam here with us. Sam Hall, welcome. How are you today? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

01:28

Hey, love to be here, lev Nice, to see you. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

01:30

Great, great to have you. Sam has worked in senior communications roles for several decades for companies such as Vodafone, oracle, servicenow and now Samsara, and you've been on the corporate side and the agency side as well, and you're also an advisory board member for software PR company sorry, pr software company Presspage. If this is your first time listening to the Virtually Anything Goes podcast, stick around until the end. We also have the Virtually Anything Goes question, where I turn control over to Sam. Sam can ask me any question he likes, whatsoever. I have to answer the question. The only caveat is that I will then, after I've given my answer, also turn the same question over to Sam, and he has to also answer it. So stick around for that. But for now, sam, let me start with this question. In the age of social media and decentralized communications, is corporate communication struggling or perhaps even obsolete? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

02:27

Yeah, it's a great question and it's. It's one I think every communications professional is asked and, if they're really good, asks themselves, and I'm sure we talk about it a bit later on. But I think it comes down to how do you define corporate communications. If you're thinking of it just as kind of what we used to call pr and media relations, possibly there are more things to manage. So social media is a way you can directly engage your audience, and we see politicians and we see organizations do that. Really, the way I try and live it every day and think about it is it's just more channels to manage. It gives you more tools in your toolbox. So, rather than making it obsolete, it gives us more things to play with, more ways to reach an audience and more things to manage. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

03:07

So, if anything, it makes the role of communications even stronger yeah, and we'll go into, I guess, the various different facets and aspects, and we don't just want to be talking about corporate communications. We'll talk about communications in general as well. I'm sure we'll get into crisis communications as well, which I think is always an interesting one to take a look at, but communications can mean a variety of different things. Right, you've had a glittering career across decades for various companies, but communications can be anything. So tell us a bit more about how you got started in communications and why you're passionate about it. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

03:39

Yeah, I got started because I actually studied business communications at university, purely because, uh, I was going to study law. But the university I chose was nearer the beach and so there was more opportunity to, to, to go uh sailing and spend more time on the beach. So it probably wasn't the most uh educated uh decision I've ever made. Which university was that? Uh, it was down down on the South Coast, bournemouth University, so I had a cracking four years down there and I think the reason I've sort of stayed in communications is exactly that. What is it and how did I get into it? You studied economics, you studied business, you studied psychology, you studied NLP all of these great things. 

04:22

And if you get excited, at the heart of what communications is, it's about you wanting to say something and create a reaction in an audience. 

04:33

That's all communications is. 

04:33

And, as per the previous question, whether you do it through earned media, what you see on TV, what you read on the papers, what you read on Twitter, now, x, whatever it is, how you craft it, everybody can communicate. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should, and doesn't always mean you're good at it, and so, throughout the time I've spent, I spent a number of years, you know, working in an agency in a junior role, cutting out press clippings, and it was all about how many pieces of coverage and column entries did you get right up to now, where it's much more about, about you know how do we create a reaction and a feeling across investors and employees and and various other audiences, and so I think the thing that appealed to me originally about it was just the breadth of what it was doing. And I think, as technology's changed and as the world's changed, the one thing that most people say is, oh, that was a bad piece of communication or that was a great piece of communication, and it can touch every part of life business, politics, whatever it is. And so if you're interested in communications, you're pretty much interested in the world and people. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

05:39

Is that what drove you initially to? I mean other than the beach, clearly, but is that? 

IntroductionHost

05:44

what drove you to study. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

05:44

That mean other than the beach, clearly. But um, is that what drove you to to study that area, or kind of? Yeah, was it the interest in people? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

05:48

I think so yeah, I think it was. I mean I, I, you know I won't lie and say it was a really conscious, well thought through decision. Um, I was interested in business, I was interested in psychology, I was interested in communications and, and I think I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do. Um, I knew that I was interested in communications and, and I think I didn't really know exactly what I wanted to do. Um, I knew that I was interested in sort of reputation and and how people form a reputation and you know, when I was at University, you studied lots of, you know, the Piper Alpha crisis or the Greenpeace crisis and and it was very kind of these big, momentous occasions where you know it was all to do with protesters on oil rigs and you know big, big, big crises that had kind of brought down companies. 

06:35

And I thought, you know, I was going to go and study law and there's been many periods throughout the career where I thought should I go back to that? But actually, as I've kind of delved further and spent more time in communication, it's the breadth of what you get to do, the people you get to work with, and on the corporate side, you get access to some amazing people, quite often a communications person or team If they are good at what they do and they do it in the right way has access to that most senior leadership and boardroom. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

07:04

So you get to spend some time with some amazing people and I've been lucky enough to do that throughout the career yeah, I, I know you have, I've I've seen your work and, um, you know you, you become, I guess, a trusted advisor to to the so senior leadership and and it's it's all about obviously communicating their vision and so on as well, and and I guess that also comes with the corporate communications role being quite a high, highly pressured environment, because you've got loads of stakeholders to think about. 

07:31

You've got employees, you've got the senior leadership, you've got shareholders, you've got the press, um, a whole variety of different stakeholders and and they all require, I guess, a different form of communication, different type of content that they need to see and be communicated to as well. How do you approach that and what makes you, I suppose, what do you do that makes you an expert in this? Because, let's face it, you've worked in senior communications roles for many, many years for some big companies that are leaders in their sector. So how do you approach that and what makes you an expert? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

08:03

I guess, thinking in the context of the expert series. Yeah, I love the word expert because I think lots of people can define themselves as experts and I think one of the things that helps people be an expert is if you make lots of mistakes and actually learn from them, because I think with communications it's interesting. There's never really it's not black and white. There's never a right way to do something. There's never really it's not black and white. There's never a right way to do something. There's always opinions. And so one of the things I probably learned a little too late in my career but which has stood me in good stead, is like expectation management, and whenever I talk to my team or business partners or whatever, it's about having a view, um, making a call on that view. And you know, like we, I have a favourite phrase with a lot of my team which is about disagree and commit. You know you could argue points of view all day long. You know we think go left. You say go right, you've got to make a decision and stick with it, but then be open-minded enough to then potentially change your mind. And you know, change direction and be open enough to that. And so I think your point about all the different stakeholders. Everybody wants something slightly different and if I put it into a corporate context, the company wants to say, x, let's go down the earned media route. You know, journalists have their customers and audiences, their readers. They don't necessarily, but they want your information, but they don need your rhetoric and and kind of marketing pros, and so it's about trying to always be that kind of halfway house and that win-win person, and I think what stood me in good stead is and again, something I learned, probably a little bit too late is don't act in haste, pause. Think what are you trying to do? Uh, what is the people you're trying to influence want with it? And there's a great you know what's in it for me. 

09:45

So, whether you're, you know, communicating to employees, you're doing change management, um, you're dealing with a crisis, and you might have consumer groups, or or you know the general public, you're always the person in the middle and that is a it can be a pressured role, but it's a really exciting role because you're the arbitrator of everybody's opinions, and so what you really need to be able to do is put yourself in lots of other people's shoes and have the bravery to say this isn't my view. This isn't your view, but we need to consider everybody's view and people think about communication. As you know, there's all those words that kind of were bandied around years ago like spin doctors and sultans of spin and all of that, and it probably had a little bit of a negative connotation. And that's because you're looking at one way communication and some of the things I've had to deal with whether it's employee disputes or mergers and acquisitions you've got one interested party here. You've got one interested party here and there aren't many people that wake up in the morning and go. 

10:46

I really want to make somebody's life hell and so all you're trying to do is take this view and then this view and this has a view, and you want these people to take an action and they maybe want to or don't, and it's finding that halfway house. And you know it's like anybody. If you've ever had a conversation with your other half or your kids, you're always trying to find that win-win. Listen as much as you speak, find that win-win and if it's not a true win-win, just be really open, honest and transparent. And it's such. There's such simple things to do, but so often they're the most powerful things to do and people kind of get caught up in all the theory of it and just be honest, be clear, be concise. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

11:26

Most of the time it works out and I mean you mentioned a few things there. 

11:30

One was the kind of obviously taking the different views of different people and stakeholders, um, and I'm I'm wondering, and you know you mentioned the green piece that was I guess sort of 80s, 90s where, yeah, and it's sort of I guess prominence heyday, um, a lot of it was on tv and being broadcast and it was, you know, the first step for the first time, this kind of outrageous in a good sense, the kind of the you know, drawing alongside ships and oil tankers and trying to board them and putting up banners and stuff. 

11:58

I guess, over time and during the time that you've been working this space, there's been also generational shifts in terms of areas of interest and concern. The environment has been obviously clearly, as we just mentioned, going for a while, but there's other areas as well. But you also said you have to kind of use your own discernment and your own opinion and be willing to be changed by that. How do you manage that I guess multifaceted aspect of generational change of priorities, media changes of environment, in terms of how the platforms work and whether, whether where the conversations happen, but then also bringing in your own opinion with that to actually represent the company. There's a lot of moving factors there. How do you manage that um? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

12:40

I think there's plenty of examples where people don't get it right, and and I'm not naive or arrogant enough to say I always get it right I think there's two things you can do is and one of the reasons why I've stayed in this industry and done it for as long as I have is you're always learning, so you need to understand that there's an element, especially with the onset of social media a number of years ago. You need to learn it, and every time I speak to people that you know work in my team in social media, it's like oh, the algorithms have changed, the approach has changed. This is that's exciting stuff, because it's it's. It means you're always having to tweak your approach and you're always learning, which is which is great. Um, I think with, as you said, like sort of with with different generations it's if you can combine that always learning and trying to understand and then going into everything with an open mind, and that can be. You know, I use the case of when you're talking to your kids or you're talking to your other half, or whatever it happens to be. 

13:40

But if you can understand where the other party is coming from, it doesn't mean you're going to agree with it. It doesn't mean you're going to necessarily roll over and agree with everything they say, but you can be a better communicator because, honestly, it's the art of communication, is often the art of negotiation in a public space. Be it, you want somebody to carry a message for you it's a product launch or, as I said, it could be a crisis situation, whatever it happens to be. And if you can just understand where one party is coming from, understand another party coming from, and I think the best way I try and manage it is. You know, for the last 20 odd years I've worked for corporations and corporations. We have a vested interest. We sell a product interest. We sell a product, we deliver a service for money. But if you can be that sort of chief arbitration officer and say this is our view and it's not wrong. But there are these other people and they have a slightly different take on what we're trying to do and help executives and companies understand what they are ultimately trying to achieve, you can actually, through having no kind of like, if you like formal training it's not like going to medical school and understanding a certain procedure or passing the bar or anything but you can actually be really valuable. 

14:59

Because I think you mentioned earlier in the age of always on, you know, I think, how many hours do we spend on our laptops, our phones, our PlayStations, our smart TVs? It's communication is all around and you know, when I started it was just kind of press and earned media. It was one channel. You were the press team and now you are really responsible for how people react to a person or to an organization, really responsible for how people react to a person or to an organization. And if you embrace that and you're prepared to have a lot of frustrating conversations and difficult conversations and sometimes be the most unpopular person in the room because I sometimes refer to myself as you're like the United Nations of a situation, you're trying to get everybody to meet in the middle and then advise on what the path forward is. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

15:46

So you can either be the most valuable person, or sometimes you compete at most irritated or or unlike person in the room, but if you're comfortable with that, you can also be the most valuable right yeah, and and I guess, um, I mean, you mentioned crisis, crises a couple of times and, um, I want to dive into that a bit more because it's it's it's an area that I, as a sort of layman and not working necessarily in corporate communications always view as, I guess, work like working in an, a, uh, a, a department or you know, er for for american listeners. 

16:15

Um, where all of a sudden, something will kick off, something you know catastrophic has happened or is about to happen and you have to put your sole focus on that, I assume. Um, what what's? I mean, I'm assuming you've been in those situations. What have you learned and what's happened can you share? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

16:32

share with us some, some insights on some examples yeah, I'll try and anonymize them as much as you can, but I think, um, there's a couple of things. I think a lot of people think a crisis is a crisis that isn't a crisis. It's an unplanned situation, and a lot of crises come from not doing the right planning. So I'll give some examples in a moment. But, whatever a crisis is around, about 80% of how you respond to a crisis is the same thing you. There's an approach, you go through, you kind of you know, you prepare for it, you listen, you understand, you communicate as much as you can, as fast as you can. You promise to then share more when you can, and you keep that promise. You literally do what you say you're going to do. But the first rule of any crisis is you prepare for it. So there's a lot of times where people will kind of send an email, knock on the door, ring the phone, whatever it happens to be, go. Oh, we've got a crisis, and a lot of it is because it's not a crisis, it's just something that we didn't plan for. And you can sometimes inadvertently create a crisis out of an issue, and I see that so many times. Real crises are when you know. For me, there's three types of crises. There's like a reputational crisis, which is something that is going to harm what people think of you as a business, or it's going to affect the stock price, or it's going to affect, as I say, your standing. There's an operational crisis, which nobody may ever know about, but it's something with inside the business that is going to affect what happens. And then there are external crises that then happen and to give you kind of an example of each one is, obviously we live in a pretty tumultuous world at the moment, with what's going on in the Middle East and then, prior to that, what was going on in various parts of North America. And we don't have to go too far back to when we were seeing sort of various terror attacks and this, that and the other. 

18:37

And if you take what I call big C communications and you're responsible for external comms and internal comms and everything, there might be something that doesn't touch your company at all, but it's really important you engage your employees, make sure they feel safe. It's not about the business, it's not about the product you sell, it's not about that. It's about continuity of safety and security of your employees, and they're the things that can sort of happen like that because something's happened on the news overnight and we know all of the sad things that are going on in the news at the moment. The communication side of that can be 80% planned. Whatever that situation is, have you got the right ways in which to engage your employees? Are you working with the right business partners, be that in safety and security, hr, workplace services? Do you know where people are? Do you know who is currently in that country at the time on a business trip? Do you have their mobile number? 

19:31

If you get all of that locked in, it is a process and the outcome of there was a wonderful CEO I worked for in a previous life who said you know, a crisis is a terrible thing to waste and when that comes down to like selling products and market opportunities, absolutely. But even when something horrendous happens, it's an opportunity to stress, test your processes and make employees feel that the company cares about them and do the right thing by your employees. So that's one and I think that can be really easily planned. You think, think operational crises. You know we had in a previous company, we had a number of years ago. We had like the Arab uprising and we had a number of business critical services that couldn't be completed anymore. Or I work for a major telecoms company and we had a massive flood which basically knocked out the mobile phone signal for a large part of the UK, and again that was something that, by every second that went past, the business wasn't doing what it should do. So again, you need to stop, you need to think, you need to be calm, you need to listen, you need to assess and then you need to tell the critical people in the right order as much as you know. There's no point, none of this. Oh, we can't tell you that. Tell as much as you can, as much as you're legally allowed to be able to tell, and then promise to get back to it. 

20:59

And then the final one is the ones where it is reputation. So in a previous life I had situations where we had protesters outside our head office chaining themselves to the front door and national media turning up. And what you've got to understand when that happens is don't waste valuable time blood, sweat, tears trying to control what you can't control. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. What it is now about is understanding why it happened, minimizing the impact on that. 

21:34

And again, it comes back to what I said. You know, be open, be honest, be truthful and be as fast as you can. And it comes back to what I was saying earlier if you can, just you know, be really open and transparent. That to what I was saying earlier. But if you can, just you know, be really open and transparent, that's all people really want from a communications point of view and that's all people want from a company. 

21:51

And, and especially now you're not going to be able to control the mediums which which it goes through, people will say you know what's being said about us on linkedin, on social media, on x, on facebook. What about this forum? And you're, like not many of a brand that is going to face that type of crisis. You'd have an army of people measuring everything all the time. There'd be so much noise you wouldn't know what to do with it. The really important stuff tends to bubble up and you've got to act on the important stuff and lots of people go um, information overload what's being said. Don't worry about the channels. The channels will become obvious, because that's who you need to communicate to. 

22:27

Let the like, put filters in place so you're not. Somebody once said something negative about on page 93 of Google or in a forum they didn't like our service. Okay, fine, everybody's entitled to their opinion. That isn't a crisis, and sometimes as much of a crisis is managing your own executive's response to it and your own response to it. And you know, nobody learns how to do a crisis or nobody's trained how to do a crisis. You learn by going through them, and the best people I've ever worked with are the ones that have gone through it and probably got it wrong many times. Continually assess afterwards and learn from their mistakes Sounds a bit like life I suppose it does. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

23:07

Yeah, uh, I guess the question. As you were talking, you kind of answered a little bit. But is I mean these situations sound or can be very, very stressful by the sounds of it and you spoke about planning for it in the process um, how much of your reaction and approach to it is based on that planning? How much have you learned, as you just mentioned? But also how much is it a natural personality trait and being able to deal with that under stress and calmness, or is all of that learned? Can anybody learn that and come to a point where they say, well, the crisis isn't what we want. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

23:44

It's a really good question. No, it's a really great question. I think it's one I should probably ask myself that. And and come to a point where they say, well, the crisis isn't, you know, isn't what we want. But no, it's a really great question. I think, um, it's one I should probably ask myself because because I'm not naturally always, like you know, the calmest person in the room, I'm quite high energy. I I get my. I get my energy from other people and in a crisis, actually, it takes the opposite to that. 

24:01

I think where people feel stress is when the demands being placed on them outstrip their sort of ability, their supply levels, to answer them. And I think, you know, the biggest thing with a crisis is the thing that you can't always control is the time. So you know it's happened. You've got externals, you've got internals wanting an answer, wanting you to take action. And I think it comes back to that planning. If you have the planning and all the boring stuff which happens, let's say you have a crisis one week of the year, the other 51 weeks of the year, if you've honed that, you've practiced it, you've got a model for it, all you're doing is dealing with the last 20%. You're not dealing with everything. The worst thing to be doing and and I've had a couple of examples when something's happened, you go I don't know a what has happened, why it's happened or what the impact is, rather than then dealing with the next stage. You're still, in fact, finding mode and that's going to happen, and sometimes, if that is the case and you know, we see it in the news often with companies. If that's going to happen, and sometimes, if that is the case and you know, we see it in the news, often with companies. If that's the case, what you need to do is buy yourself time. You say look, we are not aware of all you know. However, the right phraseology of it is and sometimes that's the most stressful thing is, you can communicate, to spend a lot of time worrying over the exact words of what's said, but you need to buy yourself time and say look, we are aware this has happened. We are doing everything we can to investigate. Why does this happen? What the next stage forward is give us x amount of time. Don't say just give us time. Give us one day, one week, two hours, whatever it happens to be, and stick to that deadline. Then do your fact finding and plan. 

25:41

I think where a lot of people and that's something I've learned because I'm naturally quite action orientated and everybody wants to deal with it now and you're like you know, the old phrase of you know like act in haste, repent at leisure type thing is you need to make sure you pull everybody together and there needs to be a really clear decision matrix on it. So if it's something to do with employees, make sure HR is in the room, make sure workplaces in the room, make sure that you've got the details of who's where in the room, make sure you've got people's contact details, all of those boring housekeeping things which are often something on somebody's to-do list that gets put off and put off. Just stress test that, because when it does happen to you, what you can then do is start to act on what is our response and how do we make sure we do the right thing, because otherwise that's where stress creeps into it. And the only other lesson I did learn, which I'd never appreciated, is, if there is what I would call a proper P0 crisis which doesn't mean it's over an hour or a couple of hours If it goes on for a few days, don't be afraid to sleep and I know that sounds daft, but there's lots of people that go if you're in a crisis war room I've been in the cup or put the big pots of coffee on the table. We're going to be here till we've solved it. 

27:00

Make sure you've got proxies and backups, because there's going to be a point in that crisis where you're going to have to make a decision and, as I said at the start of my very long answer, there's never a right and wrong. It's not maths, it's not one plus one equals two. It's a gradient of an opinion and we've seen it many, many times. But companies don't have opinions. Companies have a stance that are fed in by lots and lots of people, and often in public companies. You've got comms people, you've got executives, you've got lawyers, you've got lots of people governing bodies, etc. You're going to have to make a judgment call at one point and if you're knackered and you haven't slept for three days and all you've had is a bourbon biscuit out of the vending machine and some bad coffee, you're not going to make the best decision. So make sure that you buy yourself time. You communicate clearly. You communicate early. So when it does come to make that decision. 

27:57

You've got the people around the table that are all brought in and I think I used this phrase at the start of the conversation but like disagree and commit, you're never going to the thing everybody tries to do. Sometimes let's get everybody to agree. Are we in agreement? Nobody's going to be in agreement a lot of the time, but can we disagree and commit? I might not agree with you, lev, on something, but do I see your point of view? Enough to go? We need to make a decision. I don't agree, but I will commit to it. Go, we need to make a decision. I don't agree, but I will commit to it. And that is so key because otherwise the worst thing of making the wrong decision sometimes is making no decision right and you then lose control yeah, yeah, really interesting. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

28:34

And one of the things actually you mentioned, uh, about the kind of early and ongoing communication, was something that, um, one of our guests from series one, chris m Mitchell, brought up around customer success, and if something happens that has gone wrong in communicating with a customer or serving a customer with a product or a service, they've had some kind of failure on whatever it was they were using. His point was communicate. Even if there's nothing to communicate, say okay, we're working on this, we'll let you know, um, and and then continue communicating. You know, if there's, if there's nothing to say an hour on, say we're still working on it and and that at least being present and visible and acknowledging the fact that there is something that needs to be done and if things work well all of the time, you've got no opportunity to surprise and delight. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

29:21

Now I'm not talking about major crises where you know very bad things have happened. You know If it's literally down to a service where you know again working, quite often you'd have network outages and people wouldn't have a mobile phone signal or something like that, and you know when that is in a critical environment, that's bad. But when things like that happen kind of almost encourage the complaints and encourage the feedback because from a communication point of view, most communicators have a need to. They are people pleasers. They like to please, they like to do the right thing. 

29:56

If there is a crisis, or there is at least a situation, it gives you an opportunity to surprise and make things better. How many times, if you like. You know it would be great if your car never went wrong. But if your car goes wrong and you take it to a garage and you get amazing service and you know they greet you, it's solved quicker than you think. They've given you a higher car, they've cleaned, they've done all that you come away. You've kind of forgotten about the bad service and you've gone. That was a great experience. That's a great experience you wouldn't have had if your car hadn't gone wrong. 

30:28

So you do and I'm not saying be opportunistic, because sometimes that can play out in the wrong way. But you should always look at any situation of how can we do the right thing and sometimes surprise and delight. And that's where you sometimes have a conversation with legal and finance, because quite often doing the right thing costs a bit more money. But if you then put things like brand equity, corporate reputation, goodwill on a balance sheet which is very, very hard to do it can pay you back in spades. You only need to search the internet to find multiple examples of that. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

30:59

Yeah, service recovery is one of the first things I learned early on is exactly what you described Something goes wrong, you recover exactly what you described. You know something goes wrong, you recover from it, you over serve and actually you delight your, your customer, where something has gone wrong. 

31:12

And actually they become more loyal than they were before because they can trust you and if something goes wrong, I can trust this company to sort it out and actually over deliver to a degree. So, yeah, really interesting. I want to get into something slightly lighter. Uh, away from the crises, but um, but um. Really keen to kind of from your perspective. If, if there was what do you love about your job? Anything, if anything was taken away from you in the job that you do, what would you miss the most? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

31:39

yeah, I think it's. Uh, it's a great question because I like the unplanned, uncontrollable reactive nature of it and there are times I don't. You're sitting there. We used to have a phrase it was always when I was working in a previous company, a US company. Four o'clock on a Friday afternoon, you know it's time to kind of wrap things up for the week. Let's get all the admin done and enjoy the weekend, and there would be something that would happen and you know full well that your Friday's just gone and possibly your weekend. And in a slightly perverse way, the family didn't like it. 

32:25

Many times in working for a previous telecoms provider, I'd be halfway home, the crisis phone would go. You'd turn around and go back to the war room. But it's kind of nice to be needed and it's nice to be doing something that you feel has real tangible value. So you know, I work a lot in my current role and in a couple of previous roles. I work a lot with salespeople. I work a lot in my current role and in a couple of previous roles. I work a lot with salespeople and salespeople it's very clear the value they provide, they sell, they make profit, they hit a target, fantastic. 

32:55

And sometimes in communications it's all judged and there's been so much work done in the industry over a number of years to measure it. There's brand equity studies, there's EN industry over a number of years to measure it. You know, there's brand equity studies, there's ENPS studies, there's external NPS studies. But when something like that happens, it's like right, it's all hands to the pump, we've got to do something. There is a real sense of camaraderie in it and one of the things I've said to my team for many years, since I've been sort of managing people, is we work in communication day in, day out and sometimes when you're in that room it doesn't have to be a crisis. It can be planning for an event, it can be planning for a big kickoff, whatever it happens to be. Don't just because everybody can send an email or everybody can write a script and everybody could shoot a video on their iPhone now. And and god, I look at my kids and they've all the level of skill my kids have as content creators are probably what I would have paid agencies for years ago. But you are a communications professional. You do have a set of skills and a set of opinions and always remember that, because in the room. You know I'm never going to tell a salesperson how to sell, but I don't also want to be told how to communicate. And, again, always bring in other people's views and whether it's I mentioned the whole disagree and commit philosophy. 

34:14

There is an art to good communication, and that communication isn't necessarily do we send it via Facebook, do we send it via an email? Do we take an ad out in the press? It's what are we trying to say and why are we trying to say it? And so I like having that, I suppose, sense of influencing people and having an impact on the way people feel. And you know, I've been lucky enough to work for some fast growth companies that when I joined them, people were like I've been lucky enough to work for some fast growth companies that when I joined them, people were like who are they? And then you get all of the questions pretty much day in, day out. 

34:50

Well, you know, we need to do better communications. What do you mean by that? Oh, we need more brand awareness. What do you mean by that? Well, we need more of this. And then, just by doing the good work consistently, fast forward one, two, three, four, five years. And that's what I mean about the immediacy sometimes of like a crisis or something, you're needed then. 

35:10

But if you judge your impact over a long enough period of time, you know, within the industries that I work in, the companies I work for are now really well known and and in some part that is due to the communications team, the work that's done. 

35:23

It's also due to the success of the company and everything. But I've been lucky enough to work for CEOs and really senior leaders that invest in communications teams and invest in making sure that communications team has access to the table of decision makers. When I first started, I did a placement degree and it was very, very junior very early on, and I mentioned I was cutting out you know trade media pieces of coverage and sticking them on thick paper to give a client a cuttings book, and I was like, are we just paid to do that? What about our opinions? And when I was at university, I wrote this entire dissertation about you know, are you just, like you know, media executors or are you opinion formers? And I think you know, with everything that's happened in the industry in the world, communications has an opportunity to really earn its right at the table, but it's down to you to do it. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

36:18

We can't talk to you and not talk about, I think, something that's really important and still developing at the moment as well, which is inclusion and belonging, and you know, looking slightly perhaps more, perhaps a little bit more internally in terms of the employee base, but perhaps also how the companies can communicate externally to different groups. How do you approach that, how do you see that and how do you measure progress in that area? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

36:43

Yeah, I think again, I've spent a lot of my career working for American software companies. So, by the nature of it, whilst there's a strong American culture, they are global in their nature and God, I can remember going back, you know, 10, 15 years. Diversity and inclusion and belonging wasn't really talked about. It certainly wasn't acted upon, and quite a big part of the kind of communications calendar is a diversity report. There are, we work with leaders and I've been lucky enough to work for companies that invest in DE&I leaders, inclusion teams, inclusion training. 

37:22

And you know, if you'd have asked me 20 years ago, do I understand unconscious bias, conscious bias? You know the power of diversity of thought, I wouldn't have really had a view, I think, as I mentioned earlier, to kind of put a communication spin on it. If you are trying to be a successful company and engage audiences and, you know, find your place within the world, you need to understand the people that exist in that world. And so you know diversity of thought create better decisions. There is immense amount of research out there. You know HBR McKinsey have done a lot of work on this. Diversity of thought, 100 um drives better outcomes and better decision making. 

38:09

And you know, I thought this when I hire people, everyone. There was a phrase it's probably still around today a bit, but, like you know, are you a cultural fit, and I always subscribe to that are they a cultural fit, you know? Do you think they're join our team, do they think they're like us, and, and that wasn't a bad thing. But can you imagine the world and working in a team? You know me well, liv Imagine working with five of me. It would be your worst day. It would be your worst meeting. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

38:34

Nobody would get a word in edgeways. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

38:37

That the coffee consumption would go off the chart, and I talk about now a cultural ad. I like to hire people that will have a different view, bring a different view, challenge me. Can I learn from them? Will they make sure that, when we need to do, make those important decisions and we were talking about crisis earlier so diversity of thought, and especially in my world, you know, in the last God what seven, eight years I've had the pleasure of adding talent, brand and employee comms to my world. 

39:06

Employees are made up of a diverse set of people. If the decisions being taken to engage them are all made by me and I have unconscious biases Everybody does and if I'm not aware of them, how do we measure that? We measure that probably through attrition, through employee scores. Everything can be rated. Now there's, you know, if you're lucky enough, it stays on glass door. If you're unlucky enough and I was in a company once when this happened they set up microsites and post internal stuff and post internal emails and it can be immensely damaging to show that you work. 

39:42

Once worked for a company that didn't take diversity, inclusion of belonging, seriously, and it is a decision, you know. Diversity is a decision that company makes. We can hire people that don't look like ourselves and we can make sure we have balanced scorecards. Always hire the best, the balance scorecards, so diversity inclusion it can, but balanced scorecards. So diversity Inclusion can be influenced. It can be. How do you bring people in? How do you make sure they have a seat at the table? How do you make sure every voice is heard? Comes right down to as you can tell I talk a lot, I'm quite an extrovert the quietest person in that meeting. Make sure they're included. That might be asking for their views before or after, or having somebody that will interrupt me to make sure their voice is heard. That's inclusion. If you get all of that right and I had a great CHRO in a previous company who talked about DIBS, diversity, inclusion and belonging. And if you can create belonging we were talking about brand equity and goodwill on the balance sheet If you can create belonging we were talking about brand equity and goodwill on the balance sheet if you can create belonging, that is when you've got employees that will make the good times great and they'll be absolutely there, sleeves rolled up, mucking in when things go wrong. And so diversity inclusion can create harmony and a stronger workforce. And if you can make them all feel belong, you can have a really, really powerful employee base. 

41:05

And if you ask any senior leader what their biggest challenges are, often it's, you know, like the targets they've got, but it's hiring great people and making sure great people don't leave, because often great people leave to the competition. So all of that stuff is really sometimes difficult to tangibly measure and there's lots of ways to do it. But you need to hang on to great people because otherwise you lose them and there's a cost of retention on that and a cost of attraction. But also they might go to the people you're trying to beat every day in the commercial market. So just thinking a little bit less pounds, shillings and pence or dollars and cents and creating a place for everybody where they can excel. 

41:45

There's a great phrase that I mentioned, my old CHO about bringing your authentic self to work, and I think one of the questions you talked to me about our communication. If you can be yourself, you can be consistent, and in communications and expectation management, every senior executive I've ever worked for is a person outside of work. They're a mother, a father, a brother, a sister, a daughter, a son. They go home and their kids shout at them, their partner shouts at them, they've got parents that everybody has a life outside of work, and if you can understand that people are people and come to work and bring in that inclusion, you will create some magic that makes people want to work together and create magic themselves, and I think that's amazing. When you're in teams and I've been lucky enough to be in teams and I'm in one now that works like that. It's a really good. You spend a lot of time at work. It's a great place to be yeah, perfect segue. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

42:42

By the way, uh, thank you for that, um, because I really want to. I mean, I've known you for some time now and, and um, never too long, sam. Uh, I want to find out and hear from you a little bit about how, um corporate communication sam compares to father husband Sam. Friend Sam, how do they compare when they communicate? Is there an overlap? How you communicate? Are you always the same person? You communicate the same way, you know. Just keen to hear from you about that. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

43:14

That is a really good question. I think my wife would give you a very different answer. She often says to me that you know you don't need to talk to me like we're at work or you know, let's not treat a family day out like it's a pre-planned thing. I quite like things in boxes and nicely planned. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

43:32

And let me tell you, you once had a Trello board for home life as well. Is that right yeah? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

43:39

Those days, yes, when we had a workflow for a holiday and what we were doing at home. Yes, I am slightly OCD. In that sense. I think it's an interesting one because it's something that I think held me back a bit when I was younger and maybe a little bit less confident in my own opinions. I am naturally quite verbose and I'm incredibly aware of that. I have a great deal of care. I would like to think emotional intelligence about others and and care about what people think and how they're brought in and everything, and when I was younger I used to kind of almost apologize for that and try and be. 

44:19

If I was, you obviously should always amend how you say and how you talk to people. There's books galore on building rapport and NLP and body mirroring and all of that good stuff and that's all good to do. But one of the best things and I try and emulate great bosses I've worked for and I've had some amazing bosses to work for and they were just consistent in how they were and so it didn't mean they were nice to you all the time. You know, if they were unhappy and bawled you out or you'd done something wrong, they gave you critical. They gave you critical feedback. They gave it very honestly. They also praised you that you didn't have this inconsistency of oh Christ, what? What mood are they in today? You know, am I treading on eggshells? Is it a good day? That's what I try and do is just I don't let I try and not bring, you know, personal stuff to work and let that affect, but just be consistent and be me. And and there was a great book, um, I read on personal branding years ago and they say, you know, nobody is. And I read, I subscribe to lots of those audio books and I spend a lot of time in the car and listen to how to improve yourself and do this and do that. They tend to come back to the same thing, other than, like you know, I'm a big fan of an ice bath and getting up really early in the morning and doing all that. But just be you. 

45:37

And I talk about authentic communication. And I talk about authentic communication and yet you've got to kind of change maybe what you're saying and how you're saying it, whether you're saying it to investors or employees, or you know an industry group that isn't very happy with you or there's a challenge. But if you can bring a little bit of your own personality to it and they see that you are a human being. So, sam, the communicator at work is still Sam, the dad, the husband, the son, hopefully a few friends and all of that If you can bring it, because everybody is one of those outside of work and I think you can build great bonds with people and you can make great strides if your goal is influencing them. 

46:19

This sounds very like predetermined and contrived, but if you're trying to engage with them and communicate well with them, if you can build a relationship and that's about being finding common interests, being friendly, finding those connections it makes you a better communicator. 

46:31

If you do that, naturally, because you want to, you're in the right job and that's probably why I've despite a couple of dalliances and thinking I want to go and do something else, I've probably stayed in this career as long as I have Because I genuinely like engaging people, working on something with people and feeling part of something. And most of that outside, some of the bits you write and you actually have to create is just about building relationships with people. The conversations we've had over years about you know how do we try and do this different? That didn't go very well. Well, we've got to do that better. How do we reinvent that? It comes from building a relationship and trying to get to a place together, and that's no different than what you try and do with people you enjoy working with yeah, absolutely, and you've been clearly doing it for a long time and very well, otherwise you wouldn't have done what you did. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

47:18

So, um, thanks for those insights. We're not done yet. So, if you've just popped into this podcast and gone towards the end, we are now at the point where we've got the virtually anything goes question, which is my favorite part, but also not at the same time, because I don't know what's coming. So, if you're unfamiliar, the virtually anything goes question is where I turn the control over to Sam. Sam, I've asked you loads of questions. The control over to sam. So I've asked you loads of questions. Uh, you get to ask me a question. It can be anything you like. I don't know what the question is until you ask it. The only caveat is well one I have to answer it. But also, once I've answered it, you have to answer the same question. So hopefully that gives you a bit of a safety net. But uh, we'll see. So, sam, over to you all right, it's. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

47:56

It's a kind of double header a little bit. So the question I was going to ask you is, if you could send a message to yourself 10 years ago and another to yourself in 10 years time, what would you say and why? 

Lev Cribb (Host)

48:07

brilliant question, um uh, is it? Is it about anything? Is it has to be work related? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

48:17

or anything you like. Okay in life, doesn't not buy, not work based anything you love, buy bitcoin okay, oh, you've gone down a. You've gone down a financial gain route. I said I wasn't that intelligent but buy bitcoin, um. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

48:30

and if I could add a another sort of more personal side to it, um, be be patient with your kids, um, because they, they learn every day and you have to learn every day with them. 10 years from now, good question, 10 years from now, so that would be in. I think. Probably we've been talking about crisis, haven't we and I? 

49:09

guess it's enjoy every moment as it comes, because it's probably not as bad as you thought it was, because you always look back, don't you? You think was I worried about that back then. You know that was. That was easy compared to now, um and and I guess in 10 years time we'll look back on things that happened around this time and you think yeah, it's okay, you know you got through it yeah, so I think I think, enjoy, I think, everything as it comes and don't worry too much about it. 

49:37

Um, yeah, I think that's what I would say. What about you? 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

49:42

I like your answer. Now I'm feeling I should have gone down the Marty McFly Back to the Future 2 route where we bought the gambling book and made some money. I wasn't that intelligent, clearly. So mine, I think mine would be just because of what we've been saying about in the podcast. Mine would be like send a message 10 years ago. It would be like send a message 10 years ago. It would be like take more risks, still care, but worry less. To your point. And it is connected. 

50:11

I live very much in the present sometimes and you kind of worry about this and fast forward one year, two years, five years. I kind of remember what I was worrying about then. So I think that would be one. You know, be patient, worry less and certainly the younger you are, take more risks. I think if I was to fast forward 10 years, if I'd have done what I said 10 years ago, the message I'd send to myself in 10 years' time would be I told you so. 

50:37

You know everything will be okay. You know highs and lows. Most people get through most of them and if you do, it sounds a bit cliche, but if you do learn from it, you come out the other side slightly wiser, slightly stronger and you know, just like, enjoy that journey a little bit. You know, with everything else going on in the world, you realise that you know there was, there was a god. This is very cliche, but I think it was a. I was a big kind of like soft rock fan when I was a teenager and there was a aerosmith. Like you know, life's a journey, not a destination. I forget the journey sometimes and uh, and you need to enjoy the bits along the way it's it's. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

51:18

Thanks for that question. It's a great question, um, and you know it's. It's something that you think about every now and again, don't you think? Oh, what would I? What would? I tell my younger self not enough uh, no, well, yeah, and, but there's so much, so much, you could say, um. So thanks for putting me on the spot and clearly bringing up my money oriented side, which is not normally as present as it may come out as quickly as it did, but uh, yeah, no, it it's a nice thing to think about. 

51:41

And thanks for that question and, you know, thanks for being here. I've really enjoyed your insights talking to you. We've never recorded ourselves. We often talk about these kinds of things, so I'm delighted that you joined us on this podcast. 

Sam Hall (Expert Guest)

51:53

No, thank you. 

Lev Cribb (Host)

51:55

Of course, thank you to our audience as well. Thank you for joining us. If this is your first time that you've listened to one of these episodes, we have plenty more to come and there are others available as well. Um, we, as I mentioned at the start, we have experts um across insomnia and sleep coming. Um, we've got um. We talk about addiction. We will be talking about mentoring and startups. We'll be talking about magic, even um, with a magician who's been at brit's Got Talent and other places. So join us for those episodes as well. I think if you like this one, I'm sure you'll like the other ones as well. So keep joining us and do subscribe and keep visiting the podcast. So thanks, sam, again, for joining us and have a great day. 

IntroductionHost

52:41

Thank you for joining us on this podcast. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did For other interesting topics. Go to your favourite podcast platform or watch the video versions on YouTube. Just search for the Virtually Anything Goes podcast. See you next time.